# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/1 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")
Seems as if Israel’s ruling party has decided that with elections coming-up up in two months, now was a good time as any to show their backers how tough they can be with the 1.6 million people they keep locked-up in an area of approximately 140 square miles. Attacks are coming by land sea & air and a ground invasion seems imminent\*. Number of injured and killed increase literally by the hour – which be hard to know if you restrict yourself to watching the MSN. You can, however, follow this latest high-tech war live via social feeds – to the point of the IDF using Twitter to announce both their intentions and triumphs. How far do you you think Israel is willing to take this new massacre and, perhaps, more importantly with the changing landscape in the ME – Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood Gov, unsurprisingly, has already withdraw their diplomats from Israel and is sending an official delegation to Gaza tomorrow – how are the rest of the Muslim nations going to react…if at all. British activist reporting live from inside Gaza: [**Operation Pillar of Cloud**](http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud) ETA: \*\*\*\*\*Reports just coming in that Israeli tanks are entering **The West Bank**. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/2 "2012-11-15T22:29:07Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Seems as if Israel’s ruling party has decided that with elections coming-up up in two months, now was a good time as any to show their backers how tough they can be with the 1.6 million people they keep locked-up in an area of approximately 140 square miles. Do you think it has anything to do with the rockets that people in Gaza have been firing at Israel? That might sound crazy, but I can’t help thinking those two things might be related. I don’t have time to watch the UStream feed you linked to, so [here’s one article about what’s going on as a way to get started.](http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_22002572/gaza-rockets-kill-3-israelis-israeli-airstrikes-kill) ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/3 "2012-11-15T22:39:55Z")
You know, every couple years when something big happens I delve into the whole Israel/Palestine/Gaza thing and try to figure out which side I sympathize with. Sometimes it’s the Israelis, sometimes it’s the Arabs/Palestinians. I’ve come to the conclusion that I think they sort of deserve each other.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/4 "2012-11-15T22:46:07Z")
“Operation Pillar of Cloud.” That’s a rather pompous title for a bit of skirmishing around the border. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/5 "2012-11-15T22:53:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you think it has anything to do with the rockets that people in Gaza have been firing at Israel? I’m pretty sure I don’t care as I doubt [infants](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/15/the-story-behind-the-photo-journalists-11-month-old-son-killed-in-gaza-strikes/) have been firing anything. I don’t know who’s right and who’s wrong. All I know is every few months there’s another spate of articles of new deaths in the gaza strip or in the west bank and a whole lot of people spend a whole lot of words explaining why it’s this or that groups fault and if this or that person would see reason everything would be fine. Well, everything is not fine and I’m just going to sit here and mourn for that kid because I don’t know what else to do. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/6 "2012-11-15T22:54:04Z")
Would someone mind linking me to a map of Gaza? It seems from RedFury’s OP that Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel. Locked in, as he puts it. But you know, I coulda sworn Gaza borders Egypt, too. Maybe my memory’s playing tricks on me. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/7 "2012-11-15T22:59:05Z")
I think it’s supposed to be “Operation Pillar Of Defense”. Maybe the best way to forestall the “massacre” is for Hamas to [stop firing hundreds of rockets into Israel](http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/15/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/index.html), causing civilian deaths and injuries and striking the Tel Aviv suburbs. > [@RedFury](#): > > Number of injured and killed increase literally by the hour How would it increase _figuratively_ by the hour? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/8 "2012-11-15T23:07:17Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m pretty sure I don’t care as I doubt [infants](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/15/the-story-behind-the-photo-journalists-11-month-old-son-killed-in-gaza-strikes/) have been firing anything. I don’t know who’s right and who’s wrong. That’s tragic, and I don’t know either. I do figure that Hamas was probably not firing some type of rocket that can’t kill infants. [Here’s some more reporting on what’s going on.](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324735104578118783342993080.html) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/9 "2012-11-15T23:12:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you think it has anything to do with the rockets that people in Gaza have been firing at Israel? That might sound crazy, but I can’t help thinking those two things might be related. I don’t have time to watch the UStream feed you linked to, so [here’s one article about what’s going on as a way to get started.](http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_22002572/gaza-rockets-kill-3-israelis-israeli-airstrikes-kill) The prisoners are getting antsy after 45 years of oppression – imagine that. Perhaps if the US supplied them with F-18s and ‘precision-guided’ weapons they wouldn’t resort to launching crude rockets. Not that Israel’s make much distinction between good & bad guys either – but they certainly kill a LOT more people. And of course you don’t have time to hear real news from inside the Strip – seems very few Americans do. Never mind that it was, once again, Israel that broke the cease-fire: [**The correct name for this war is “Operation Short Memory”**](http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1352932988) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/10 "2012-11-15T23:17:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Would someone mind linking me to a map of Gaza? It seems from RedFury’s OP that Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel. Locked in, as he puts it. > > But you know, I coulda sworn Gaza borders Egypt, too. Maybe my memory’s playing tricks on me. And now that Puppet Mubarak’s gone, there might be a bit of hope for Gazans yet. Any left alive that is. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/11 "2012-11-15T23:21:39Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And now that Puppet Mubarak’s gone, there might be a bit of hope for Gazans yet. Any left alive that is. Red Fury, cry me a river. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/12 "2012-11-15T23:34:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I think it’s supposed to be “Operation Pillar Of Defense”. Here’s probably more than you ever wanted to know about the name. [**Operation Pillar Of Defense In Gaza: What Is The Biblical Meaning Behind The Name?**](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/15/pillar-of-defense-biblical-gaza-israel_n_2135806.html?1352981327&utm_hp_ref=uk) > [@](#): > > Maybe the best way to forestall the “massacre” is for Hamas to [stop firing hundreds of rockets into Israel](http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/15/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/index.html), causing civilian deaths and injuries and striking the Tel Aviv suburbs. You’ll note the rocket that landed at sea near Tel-Aviv was fired _after_ the invasion began. But you are right, Palestinians should be restricted to throwing rocks – of a predetermined size and weight too. > [@](#): > > How would it increase _figuratively_ by the hour? Oh I am sure you can figure that out by your lonesome – not quite in the mood for levity. Just don’t see the [**humor**](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20340810) at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/13 "2012-11-15T23:41:00Z")
I have no idea how the rest of the Arab World will react (other than making a lot of loud noises). The UN has already reacted, as usual with remarkable insight and decisiveness, according to an article above: > [@](#): > > The United Nations Security Council held an emergency meeting on the attacks late Wednesday. While diplomats said there was agreement the violence should stop, the council came to no decision. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/14 "2012-11-16T00:13:54Z")
The Palestinians deserve every bad thing that happens to them and I’m being charitable in saying that. They work hard to achieve this status and they work at it every day. You know how to not get stomped by the military might of Israel? Don’t shoot rockets at Israel! It really is that simple. Israel has lots of hostile neighbors, the kind of people who will spit on the ground every time they hear the word “Israel”. But while those neighbors might seethe with hatred every day and might wish to Allah that the Jews fall (or get pushed) into the sea, they’re smart enough not to try to make it happen. They know what they’re up against and they know they can’t win. The Palestinians on the other hand are the gift that keeps on giving. An entire nation of douchebags yelling “come at me, bro!” towards the toughest mofo on the block. And for all their tough talk they cry like babies when they do get smacked. Suck it Gaza. You paid for the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/15 "2012-11-16T00:37:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And now that Puppet Mubarak’s gone, there might be a bit of hope for Gazans yet. Any left alive that is. So just so I’m clear, I am correct in my recollection that Gaza has a border with Egypt? I’m confused; how does Israel “lock” the Gazans in if they do not control all of Gaza’s borders? Is there some part of the story being left out here? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/16 "2012-11-16T00:49:10Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The prisoners are getting antsy after 45 years of oppression – imagine that. Is that supposed to be the reason you didn’t mention the rockets and suggested this was related to the Israeli elections instead? Weak. Very, very weak. I’m not interested in excusing the broader situation in Gaza, but in your OP you omitted the single biggest reason for the attack. It seems to me that that’s an acknowledgement you can’t use all the facts to make Israel look bad. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/17 "2012-11-16T00:59:35Z")
1 - Gaza does border Egypt. 2 - The timeline (as far as I can tell, and for this event only) is that the Israelis assassinate someone in Hamas. Then the rockets came. And now the retaliation. This doesn’t address the legitimacy of Hamas or if it’s just a glorified terrorist organization, previous treaties, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/18 "2012-11-16T01:06:22Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > 2 - The timeline (as far as I can tell, and for this event only) is that the Israelis assassinate someone in Hamas. Then the rockets came. And now the retaliation. It looks like there have been a lot of rocket attacks and other skirmishes leading up to the assassination and the larger offensive today. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/19 "2012-11-16T01:49:24Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The Palestinians deserve every bad thing that happens to them . . . I’m very strongly pro-Israel, and even I wouldn’t say it that way. Nobody deserves to be under a Hamas government; not your or my worst enemy! The people are trapped under a corrupt regime, which uses them callously. Firing rockets from civilian neighborhoods is just one hellish example. The zealots and extremists have made it almost impossible for a moderate opposition to arise. What is happening is a horrible hellish tragedy. I do agree, though, that there is some instutionalized insanity in firing rockets at Israel. Sane military operations have an actual tactical or strategic goal in mind. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/20 "2012-11-16T02:17:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I do agree, though, that there is some instutionalized insanity in firing rockets at Israel. Sane military operations have an actual tactical or strategic goal in mind. You’re assuming the rocket attacks have a conventional military purpose. I would suggest they do not. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=2)