# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/181 "2012-11-18T16:26:37Z")
The key difference between the Germans being forced out of ancient German lands is they had somewhere to go. If they had basically been forced to live in refugee status for eternity it is hard to say what would be going on in those regions now, probably a lot of unrest. If other Arab countries had accepted the various groups of Palestinians made refugees by the long conflict as full citizens most likely these issues would not be very big today. How many Germans of Koenigsberg and their grandchildren are part of organizations waging war against Russia? People don’t fight their entire lives and the lives of their children and grandchildren if they have better things to do. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/182 "2012-11-18T17:39:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If other Arab countries had accepted the various groups of Palestinians made refugees by the long conflict as full citizens most likely these issues would not be very big today. How many Germans of Koenigsberg and their grandchildren are part of organizations waging war against Russia? People don’t fight their entire lives and the lives of their children and grandchildren if they have better things to do. Alternatively, imagine if Israel had refused to absorb Jews who were chased out of Hebron, Gaza, Baghdad, and so on. And instead made them live, generation after generation, in refugee camps. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/183 "2012-11-18T17:42:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The key difference between the Germans being forced out of ancient German lands is they had somewhere to go. If they had basically been forced to live in refugee status for eternity it is hard to say what would be going on in those regions now, probably a lot of unrest. > > If other Arab countries had accepted the various groups of Palestinians made refugees by the long conflict as full citizens most likely these issues would not be very big today. How many Germans of Koenigsberg and their grandchildren are part of organizations waging war against Russia? People don’t fight their entire lives and the lives of their children and grandchildren if they have better things to do. Aren’t you describing Jordan? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/184 "2012-11-18T17:47:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > . > > If other Arab countries had accepted the various groups of Palestinians made refugees by the long conflict as full citizens most likely these issues would not be very big today. How many Germans of Koenigsberg and their grandchildren are part of organizations waging war against Russia? People don’t fight their entire lives and the lives of their children and grandchildren if they have better things to do. If the various Arab states had accepted the Palestinians in their territory, they would have had problems in their own countries (and the ones that did, like Jordan did have big problems) as Palestinians in Arab countries are /= to Eastern Germans in the rest of rump Germany,l they would form a very distinct identity. Its also often forgotten that many Palestinians DID move to other countries, not just in the Arab world and the west but elsewhere as well. Pakistan took many in, one of my ex girlfriends was of Palestinian origin, although her family had long since assimilated. [QUOTE=ALessen] The border between Israel and Lebanon was established as part of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, while the border between Israel and Egypt… [/QUOTE] The bit about Sykes reminds me that he was in private; one hell of an anti-semite. The British minister in charge of this area after the conquest, [Edwin Montagu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Samuel_Montagu) was seen by the British establishment as a “thoroughly fine chap, but unfortunately too lenient towards the natives; Jewish afterall”. The universe does loves its ironies. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/185 "2012-11-18T18:11:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > If the various Arab states had accepted the Palestinians in their territory, they would have had problems in their own countries (and the ones that did, like Jordan did have big problems) as Palestinians in Arab countries are /= to Eastern Germans in the rest of rump Germany,l they would form a very distinct identity. I’m not sure that’s correct. From a cultural and historical point of view, the Prussians were at least as different from the western and southern German peoples as the Palestinians are from the Syrians, Iraqis and Egyptians. Bear in mind that Germany had barely existed as a country for half a century before they were driven out of what is now Poland; even in WW2, it was more a confederation of German-speaking nations than a single nation-state. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/186 "2012-11-18T18:18:24Z")
[**Ten Things You Need to Know About Gaza**](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-10-things-you-need-to-know_b_2139356.html) n/c ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/187 "2012-11-18T18:20:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m not sure that’s correct. From a cultural and historical point of view, the Prussians were at least as different from the western and southern German peoples as the Palestinians are from the Syrians, Iraqis and Egyptians. Bear in mind that Germany had barely existed as a country for half a century before they were driven out of what is now Poland; even in WW2, it was more a confederation of German-speaking nations than a single nation-state. Certainly, but the German language was the binding glue of the area and the idea of a German people had existed for several centuries. Also, recall that for the longest time, persons outside the Arabian Peninsula were not thought of as Arab, indeed up to the 19th century in some places, the Levant, Mesopotamia and N Africa were seen as distinct, and Arabic was the _lingua franca_ rather than a binding instrument as it was in Germany. Also, the W Germans never did accept the finality of the Oder-Niesse line; it was the 1990 Treaty which formulated it. Finally, the allies were occupying Germany at the time, the German government could do damn all. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/188 "2012-11-18T21:00:51Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > The phrase “land for peace” where Israel was supposed to give up some land for peace is the paradigm but reality for quite a long time is pursuit of “land for war” where every new settlement, every new house built by Israelis in occupied territory is an investment in maintaining status quo of eternally pissed off Palestinians . > > Beyond disgusting. Thank you for writing this. This is precisely what is happening. The whole thing is engineered so that every few years, Israel unfurls it’s “two minutes of hate” on the nearest Arab state: I imagine Israeli commanders play “duck, duck, goose” between PLA, Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, and Jordan. Now, Israel is doing what terrorist do: publishing real-life movies of their targeted kills on Youtube like some bragging man-child. Everytime I hear “Jewish democracy” I just want to retch because it means nothing and is a ridiculous oxymoron. What’s next? A New Zealand democracy? A democracy for homo sapiens with the _PTEN_ gene variant on nucleotide 256? :rolleyes:. Obama dropped the ball by supporting Israel’s operation. Why does he steadfastly and blindly support a country that has openly spied on us, tried to meddle in our elections, continued to build settlements despite our protestations, and continues to waste our damn time with the Middle Eastern peace when it’s pretty clear that the Israeli government is driven by fear and has no interest in making peace with its neighbors. We could use those few billion dollars to fix schools and our infrastructure rather than pouring our tax dollars into a “Jewish democracy” that’s not a democracy but a government-sponsored clique. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/189 "2012-11-18T21:13:15Z")
Hamas would put women back in bondage. As a homosexual myself, I wonder what their policy is towards them. ::checks:: Ooh, not looking good for Hamas. Hey Israel, here’s another billion or two. Please completely dismantle Gaza and turn it into a big gay beach. KTXBY! ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/190 "2012-11-18T21:34:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Hamas would put women back in bondage. As a homosexual myself, I wonder what their policy is towards them. ::checks:: > > Ooh, not looking good for Hamas. > > Hey Israel, here’s another billion or two. Please completely dismantle Gaza and turn it into a big gay beach. KTXBY! Instead of anonymous bigoted tripe you spout may I suggest therapy. They do wonderful things these days. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/191 "2012-11-18T21:36:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Instead of anonymous bigoted tripe you spout may I suggest therapy. They do wonderful things these days. You can do this in the Pit, not in GD. I’m giving you an official warning this time. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/192 "2012-11-18T21:40:28Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Thank you for writing this. This is precisely what is happening. The whole thing is engineered so that every few years, Yes, the so-called “Militants” who are shooting rockets into Israel and killing innocent Jews are actually Mossad operatives, the same group of people behind 9/11. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/193 "2012-11-18T21:46:20Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Ten Things You Need to Know About Gaza**](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-10-things-you-need-to-know_b_2139356.html) > > n/c I gotta hand it to you, **Red** , you do come up with entertaining cites. I was unable to read much further in your latest than this - > [@](#): > > The subsequent economic blockade imposed upon the Strip by the Israeli government at one stage prevented the residents of Gaza from importing, among other things, coriander, ginger, nutmeg and, even, newspapers. Gosh, those evil Israelis. Of the top ten million human rights violations, a nutmeg blockade has got to be at least nine-millionth. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/194 "2012-11-18T22:16:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Gosh, those evil Israelis. Of the top ten million human rights violations, a nutmeg blockade has got to be at least nine-millionth. And I again must ask why you can’t bring nutmeg across the Gaza-Egypt border. Is Israel now in charge of Egyptian customs? Seriously, if things are so shitty in Gaza, why isn’t Egypt equally to blame? Not that life is super rosy in Egypt, but the Egyptian government certainly has the wherewithal to send coriander and copies of the Sacramento Bee to Gaza. So what’s the deal here, RedFury? ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/195 "2012-11-18T22:52:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Not that life is super rosy in Egypt, but the Egyptian government certainly has the wherewithal to send copies of the Sacramento Bee to Gaza. Hasn’t there been enough suffering already? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/196 "2012-11-18T23:27:33Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes, the so-called “Militants” who are shooting rockets into Israel and killing innocent Jews are actually Mossad operatives, the same group of people behind 9/11. > > :rolleyes: That’s not what I meant and you know it, that’s why you didn’t include the full sentence in your quote. Don’t mean to the bearer of bad news but Israel has encumbered themselves by an absurd policy: _any_ rocket fire coming from Gaza is construed as the Hamas-sanctioned. It’s an impossible request to make of a Hamas-led government that don’t control their country’s own air space, sea ports, their utilities, and even taxation. How can you pin the acts of an individual not affiliated with Hamas on the many? Hypothetically, a group of kids who find and fire a rocket toward Israel could spark and fuel a bloodbath. Could you imagine if the U.S had policies like Israel? We’d have cut off ties with Canada long-ago due to their intentional and malicious saturation of maple syrup into our pancake market. I suspect we would also be at war in Mexico which would’ve started after a van filled with marijuana and cocaine was pulled over on the Texas highway. It would be perceived as a deliberate and purposeful act of terror drawn out by the upper echelons of the Mexican government. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/197 "2012-11-18T23:43:02Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > That’s not what I meant and you know it, that’s why you didn’t include the full sentence in your quote. Don’t mean to the bearer of bad news but Israel has encumbered themselves by an absurd policy: _any_ rocket fire coming from Gaza is construed as the Hamas-sanctioned. It’s an impossible request to make of a Hamas-led government that don’t control their country’s own air space, sea ports, their utilities, and even taxation. How can you pin the acts of an individual not affiliated with Hamas on the many? Hypothetically, a group of kids who find and fire a rocket toward Israel could spark and fuel a bloodbath. When Hamas itself comes out and announces its demands or the rocket attacks will continue, we are to assume all those rockets are just coming from some disgruntled individual Hamas has no control over? > [@](#): > > Could you imagine if the U.S had policies like Israel? We’d have cut off ties with Canada long-ago due to their intentional and malicious saturation of maple syrup into our pancake market. I suspect we would also be at war in Mexico which would’ve started after a van filled with marijuana and cocaine was pulled over on the Texas highway. It would be perceived as a deliberate and purposeful act of terror drawn out by the upper echelons of the Mexican government. > > - Honesty That would be like Canada & Mexico firing rockets into US cities and President Obama himself said that neither the US nor any other country would tolerate rocket attacks from across the border. Retaliation would be swift and certain, and the US officially agrees with Israel. Yes, I can imagine the US having policies like Israel. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/198 "2012-11-18T23:48:57Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > That’s not what I meant and you know it, that’s why you didn’t include the full sentence in your quote. What you seem to be saying is that (1) Israel has some motive in the latest confrontation besides self-defense; and (2) Israel somehow manufactured the current situation so that it could accomplish that ulterior motive under the guise of self-defense. Did I misunderstand you? > [@](#): > > Don’t mean to the bearer of bad news but Israel has encumbered themselves by an absurd policy: _any_ rocket fire coming from Gaza is construed as the Hamas-sanctioned. It’s an impossible request to make of a Hamas-led government that don’t control their country’s own air space, sea ports, their utilities, and even taxation. How can you pin the acts of an individual not affiliated with Hamas on the many? Hypothetically, a group of kids who find and fire a rocket toward Israel could spark and fuel a bloodbath. I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that Hamas has opposed the more recent rocket fire? If so, what’s your evidence? And so what? > [@](#): > > Could you imagine if the U.S had policies like Israel? We’d have cut off ties with Canada long-ago due to their intentional and malicious saturation of maple syrup into our pancake market. Again, I’m not sure I understand your point. Are there Canadians who are trying to murder Americans for being American? Has Canada declared that it wants to destroy the United States? Is maple syrup being smuggled into the United States in order to accomplish these goals? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/199 "2012-11-18T23:53:49Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Yes, I can imagine the US having policies like Israel. Me too, and I’m having difficulty seeing any difference here. If Canadian or Mexican groups were launching rockets into the United States with the idea of harming Americans, it wouldn’t matter whether Canada or Mexico were supporting such groups. The US would take military action and would be completely justified in doing so. Of course this assumes that Hamas is against the rocket attacks and for whatever reason is unable to police the Gaza Strip effectively. An assumption of which I am highly skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/200 "2012-11-19T00:08:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Of course this assumes that Hamas is against the rocket attacks and for whatever reason is unable to police the Gaza Strip effectively. An assumption of which I am highly skeptical. … Or that Hamas is against the rocket attacks, but is trapped under a large tree and can’t get to a microphone to publicly denounce the firing of rockets into Israel. It could happen! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=11)