# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/201 "2012-11-19T00:21:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Of course this assumes that Hamas is against the rocket attacks and for whatever reason is unable to police the Gaza Strip effectively. An assumption of which I am highly skeptical. No need to even be skeptical, it’s already [in the news](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57551575/hamas-links-truce-to-end-of-gaza-border-blockade/). > [@](#): > > Gaza’s Hamas rulers are aiming high in the conditions they place on stopping rocket fire into Israel in indirect cease-fire talks launched this weekend. Right there. Hamas = rocket attacks ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/202 "2012-11-19T00:36:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Me too, and I’m having difficulty seeing any difference here. > > If Canadian or Mexican groups were launching rockets into the United States with the idea of harming Americans, it wouldn’t matter whether Canada or Mexico were supporting such groups. The US would take military action and would be completely justified in doing so. [The President made the same statement this week.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57551535/obama-israel-has-right-to-defend-itself/) “[T]here is no country on earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders. So we are fully supportive of Israel’s right to defend itself from missiles landing on people’s homes,” Mr. Obama said at a news conference in Bangkok during an international trip to Thailand, Myanmar and Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/203 "2012-11-19T01:11:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I gotta hand it to you, **Red** , you do come up with entertaining cites. > > I was unable to read much further in your latest than this - > Gosh, those evil Israelis. Of the top ten million human rights violations, a nutmeg blockade has got to be at least nine-millionth. > > Regards, > Shodan Glad you enjoyed it. Too bad it went right over your head. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/204 "2012-11-19T01:20:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Glad you enjoyed it. Too bad it went right over your head. You mean like the missiles from Gaza. Some people find that off-putting. Even the President of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/205 "2012-11-19T01:38:15Z")
Let’s get past the sarcasm and down to brass tacks. RedFury, what’s the solution? Who should make the first move and what should they do? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/206 "2012-11-19T01:48:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …You can’t be at peace with people whose stated mission is to wage endless war on you until your destruction. We agree. From the [**Likud Party Platform from the 15th Knesset**](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/likudplatform15.html) > [@](#): > > Self-Rule > > \*\*The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. > > The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.\*\* > [@truthSeeker2](#): > > …The jews have the right to have atleast a tiny nation like Israel for them. Muslims have so many nations already. WTF? 😕 > [@lriemann](#): > > Funny how the 2nd most advanced air force in the world carries out hundreds of sorties in one of the most densely populated regions in the world and only manages to kill 37 people, most of whom are combatants… Might want to update your record-keeping (or is that ‘scoreboard’?) [**Israeli airstrike hits Gaza family’s home, killing 12**](http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-israeli-airstrike-gaza-family-12-20121118,0,1580606.story) > [@](#): > > \*\*An Israeli airstrike here on Sunday killed 10 members of one family, mostly women and children, marking the deadliest single attack and worst civilian tragedy since the current fighting in the Gaza Strip began last week. > > “This is a massacre,’’ shouted Nasser Dalu, a cousin and neighbor as he watched in anguish as his relatives were pulled from debris. “What did these children do?” > > Two male next-door-neighbors were also killed, bringing the total death count to 12, with more than 20 people wounded.\*\* Though I am sure Jamal Dalu – owner of the house and only family survivor – would get much solace from hearing you tell him that they were ‘collaterally damaged’ by the 2nd best air force in the world. Overall, deaths have more than doubled since you wrote that gem: [**In the last few days more than 700 Palestinians have been killed or injured – more than half of them women or children.**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/18/we-in-gaza-right-to-defend?mobile-redirect=false) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/207 "2012-11-19T02:01:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > We agree. “We”? What’s the solution? Who should make the first move and what should they do? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/208 "2012-11-19T02:01:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Could you imagine if the U.S had policies like Israel? We’d have cut off ties with Canada long-ago due to their intentional and malicious saturation of maple syrup into our pancake market. It’s kinda sad when you find yourself comparing maple syrup with rockets with explosive warheads, isn’t it? Doesn’t it make you think you took a wrong turn somewhere in that logic? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/209 "2012-11-19T02:06:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Let’s get past the sarcasm and down to brass tacks. > > RedFury, what’s the solution? Who should make the first move and what should they do? We all know what the definition if insanity is, right? So let’s discount that one off hand – when the current blood-lust is satiated anyway. So how about both sides honestly sit at the negotiating table w/out preconditions, agree on a common broker\*, and **stay there until they hammer out a deal** _they can all live with_? Doesn’t have to be perfect, doesn’t have to please them all, it just has to to stop the interminable cycle of murderous hatred & death. _But_ you have to have _two recognized sovereign nations_ before you can step away from the the table. Time is not an issue. \*I’d pick the Swiss. They so neutral they are genderless. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/210 "2012-11-19T02:08:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > We all know what the definition if insanity is, right? So let’s discount that one off hand – when the current blood-lust is satiated anyway. So how about both sides… I’m already convinced you don’t fully understand the facts. There’s more than two sides here. That’s part of the problem; this is not just a disagreement between Israel and the Palestinians. If it was, it might be fixed by now. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/211 "2012-11-19T02:11:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “We”? If you read my link you’d see that Likud’s stance comes\* mighty close of what you were accusing the ‘other side’ of wanting to do. Thus the sarcastic “we.” \*It’s been since taken off their agenda – but not the historical record. BTW, impeccable source this time if I may say so myself. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/212 "2012-11-19T02:19:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m already convinced you don’t fully understand the facts. There’s more than two sides here. That’s part of the problem; this is not just a disagreement between Israel and the Palestinians. If it was, it might be fixed by now. You may think whatever you wish about what I understand or not – your prerogative of course. I might add that your own knowledge of affairs strikes me as quite biased, as is my own right. But whatever fractures the Palestinians have are theirs to solve outside said negotiations. That said, dismiss anything I say and mock away. It’s an Israel thread on The Dope & I’ve been here for over ten years. What else would I expect? ETA: Not a surprise that. About the only US-based forum where there’s some semblance of balance on this issue is DU ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/213 "2012-11-19T02:32:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean like the missiles from Gaza. > > Some people find that off-putting. Even the President of the United States. Oooooh boy! Do I ever know that! And so do a LOT of people. [**Stop pretending the US is an uninvolved, helpless party in the Israeli assault on Gaza**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/17/israel-gaza-us-policy) Afraid not many here are going to like that article _either_. Oh well, I’ll manage. No F-16s in the vicinity. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/214 "2012-11-19T03:00:02Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Oooooh boy! Do I ever know that! And so do a LOT of people. > > [**Stop pretending the US is an uninvolved, helpless party in the Israeli assault on Gaza**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/17/israel-gaza-us-policy) > > Afraid not many here are going to like that article _either_. > > Oh well, I’ll manage. No F-16s in the vicinity. What? The US and Israel consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization. That’s not news. We’d love to see Hamas fall. The IDF is weakening Hamas and Hamas itself is draining its supply of rockets. One of the reasons Gaza is blockaded is to make it harder for Iran etc. to resupply them. Hopefully at least they’ll exhaust themselves for a few more years. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/215 "2012-11-19T05:46:45Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The Palestinians deserve every bad thing that happens to them and I’m being charitable in saying that. They work hard to achieve this status and they work at it every day. > > You know how to not get stomped by the military might of Israel? Don’t shoot rockets at Israel! It really is that simple. Israel has lots of hostile neighbors, the kind of people who will spit on the ground every time they hear the word “Israel”. But while those neighbors might seethe with hatred every day and might wish to Allah that the Jews fall (or get pushed) into the sea, they’re smart enough not to try to make it happen. They know what they’re up against and they know they can’t win. > > The Palestinians on the other hand are the gift that keeps on giving. An entire nation of douchebags yelling “come at me, bro!” towards the toughest mofo on the block. And for all their tough talk they cry like babies when they do get smacked. Suck it Gaza. You paid for the ticket. Wow, you’re kinda mean dude. You act like there is absolutely no reason why anyone would ever think of behaving the way the palestinians have behaved. > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Which they voted into power. We elected Bush… twice. > [@Tristan](#): > > He really can’t. **RedFury** believes that Israel should just put up with random rocket fire into their cities, and any attempt to stop that is bloodthirsty warmongering. > > The Palestinians are not to blame, at all, for anything they do. It’s all Israel’s fault. So the Palestinians don’t have any legitimate grievances? Isn’t a blockade an act of war? Isn’t Israel effectively at war with Gaza? > [@Magiver](#): > > You mean like the missiles from Gaza. > > Some people find that off-putting. Even the President of the United States. I agree, Israel and Palestine should do what Obama says. Let him be the neutral arbiter that crafts a deal neither side likes but both can live with. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/216 "2012-11-19T06:11:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > . . . Isn’t a blockade an act of war? Isn’t Israel effectively at war with Gaza? . . . A blockade can be an act of war. But the victim pretty much has to declare it as such. If Gaza were to say, outright, “The blockade is an act of war,” then, yeah, it would be. And that declaration of war would permit Israel to perform other acts of war. It has, instead, pleased Hamas to engage in an undeclared series of hostilities, trying to make any military retaliation seem unwarranted. (Has Israel ever formally declared themselves to be at war with Gaza or Hamas? If not, why not? If someone fired that many rockets at me, I’d declare war on 'em…) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/217 "2012-11-19T06:24:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A blockade can be an act of war. No, as a matter of law, a blockade is an act of war. That’s why during the Cuban Missile Crisis the Kennedy administration made a point of saying they weren’t imposing a “blockade” but were instead imposing a “quarantine”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/218 "2012-11-19T06:27:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree, Israel and Palestine should do what Obama says. Let him be the neutral arbiter that crafts a deal neither side likes but both can live with. Who do you mean by “Palestine”? What group represents them. Anyway Bill Clinton did what you suggested at Camp David. How did that turn out? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/219 "2012-11-19T07:04:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, as a matter of law, a blockade is an act of war. Not if the other side doesn’t contend it to be. If you blockade me, and I don’t care, then it is not an act of war. And that’s why I said it “can be” an act of war, but is not an automatic tripwire. If one nation blockades another, that does not mean that the two are automatically in a state of war with each other. Has the Hamas government of Gaza declared itself in a state of war with Israel? (I can’t believe they’d be so stupid!) ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/220 "2012-11-19T09:56:06Z")
“state of war” - welcome to 1939. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=12)