# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/221 "2012-11-19T10:18:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …I agree, Israel and Palestine should do what Obama says. Let him be the neutral arbiter that crafts a deal neither side likes but both can live with. Ridiculous. How could anyone in their right mind – other than Israelis of course – accept the US as an “honest broker” between the sides? Believe me, they ‘help’ aplenty already: [**Israel has received more U.S. military assistance than any other country, both in terms of grant aid and military sales on a concessional basis.**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) – hell, they are the only country in the world that is allowed to use up to 25% of that aid on their _own_ military R&D. [**In 2007, the United States increased its military aid to Israel by over 25%, to an average of $3 billion per year for the following ten year period**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) And let’s not even discuss the total immunity from International Law that Israel operates under by dint of the power of the US veto in the UN Security Council. Though you are welcome to count them yourself: [**U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel**](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/222 "2012-11-19T14:22:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Ridiculous. > > How could anyone in their right mind – other than Israelis of course – accept the US as an “honest broker” between the sides? Believe me, they ‘help’ aplenty already: > > [**Israel has received more U.S. military assistance than any other country, both in terms of grant aid and military sales on a concessional basis.**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) – hell, they are the only country in the world that is allowed to use up to 25% of that aid on their _own_ military R&D. > > [**In 2007, the United States increased its military aid to Israel by over 25%, to an average of $3 billion per year for the following ten year period**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) > > And let’s not even discuss the total immunity from International Law that Israel operates under by dint of the power of the US veto in the UN Security Council. Though you are welcome to count them yourself: > > [**U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel**](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html) From what I can tell, you would be more likely to approve of Iran as the power broker, right? FACT: the PA and it’s predecessors have rejected a 2 state solution, purely on the grounds of the “Right of Return” that they seem to hold sacred for the Palestinians, but not anyone else. Do you disagree with this statement? So it seems that the Palestinians own worst enemy is the people they chose to “lead” them. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/223 "2012-11-19T14:29:23Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Me too, and I’m having difficulty seeing any difference here. > > If Canadian or Mexican groups were launching rockets into the United States with the idea of harming Americans, it wouldn’t matter whether Canada or Mexico were supporting such groups. The US would take military action and would be completely justified in doing so. Exactly so. The U.S would attack the groups but we would never make the leap of logic, as Israel does, and assume these attacks were drawn up and carried out by the upper echelons of the Mexican and Canadian government without proof. _This is what Israel does_. Without proof, Israel assumes that _any_ rocket fire was signed, sealed, and delivered by the Hamas leadership. If Israel truly owns the air space, sea ports, and economy of Gaza and they can’t police Gaza, how in the hell do they expect Hamas to do anything when Gaza, according to Wikipedia, don’t have a even GDP! It’s as if the peanut gallery here is incapable of understanding the chasm that rests between a first world country and a country that’s poorer than Somalia. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/224 "2012-11-19T14:34:38Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Exactly so. The U.S would attack the groups but we would never make the leap of logic, as Israel does, and assume these attacks were drawn up and carried out by the upper echelons of the Mexican and Canadian government without proof. What exactly is your view about Hamas’ position regarding the rocket attacks? Do you think that Hamas supports the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is indifferent to the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is against them but unable to stop them for whatever reason? Also, what exactly is Israel doing differently based on this misguided policy you have pointed out? Can I take it you support Israeli strikes against actual terrorists who are reasonably believed to be involved in rocket attacks (regardless of whether Hamas has officially sanctioned those terrorists)? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/225 "2012-11-19T14:35:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s kinda sad when you find yourself comparing maple syrup with rockets with explosive warheads, isn’t it? Doesn’t it make you think you took a wrong turn somewhere in that logic? Whatever. Hundreds of Americans have died due to Drug War going on at the Mexican Border. The U.S has not invaded Mexico City or sent drones in. You see, just because someone is Mexican and committed a crime against Americans, doesn’t mean that they are on official government business from Mexico City. Conversely, if a group of kids find and fire a rocket toward Israel, that doesn’t mean the act was sponsored by Hamas or condoned by the people of Gaza. You see, in the U.S, we don’t kill people in neighboring countries unless we have proof of malfeasance nor do we assume the acts of an individual are the will of the many. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/226 "2012-11-19T14:38:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What exactly is your view about Hamas’ position regarding the rocket attacks? > > Do you think that Hamas supports the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is indifferent to the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is against them but unable to stop them for whatever reason? > > Also, what exactly is Israel doing differently based on this misguided policy you have pointed out? Can I take it you support Israeli strikes against actual terrorists who are reasonably believed to be involved in rocket attacks (regardless of whether Hamas has officially sanctioned those terrorists)? Yes, I believe Israel should specifically attack terrorist who have carried out attacks. I don’t think they should Youtube it, but that’s another matter altogether. No, I don’t think every rocket fired into Israel has been drawn up and approved by the Hamas leadership. It’s silly that Israel believes this. I hear kids throw rocks across the border, too. Is Hamas responsible for that, too? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/227 "2012-11-19T14:45:01Z")
Wait - you think the hundreds of rockets being launched at Israel are being fired by “kids” who are just “finding” them? Finding them where? Behind couch cushions? Inside boxes of Cracker Jacks? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/228 "2012-11-19T14:48:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Wait - you think the hundreds of rockets being launched at Israel are being fired by “kids” who are just “finding” them? Finding them where? Behind couch cushions? Inside boxes of Cracker Jacks? No, not hundreds. Maybe a few. Do they have Cracker Jacks in the Middle East? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/229 "2012-11-19T14:51:20Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > No, I don’t think every rocket fired into Israel has been drawn up and approved by the Hamas leadership. That’s not an answer to my question. Why are you evading my question? Generally speaking, do you think that Hamas supports the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is indifferent to the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is against them but unable to stop them for whatever reason? Also, what exactly is Israel doing wrong based on its misguided policy of blaming Hamas for the rocket attacks? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/230 "2012-11-19T14:55:58Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What? The US and Israel consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization. That’s not news. We’d love to see Hamas fall. > > The IDF is weakening Hamas and Hamas itself is draining its supply of rockets. One of the reasons Gaza is blockaded is to make it harder for Iran etc. to resupply them. Hopefully at least they’ll exhaust themselves for a few more years. When they are doing it and causing death, fear and devastation among the civilian populace, they call that terrorism where I come from. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/231 "2012-11-19T15:20:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > We all know what the definition if insanity is, right? So let’s discount that one off hand – when the current blood-lust is satiated anyway. So how about both sides honestly sit at the negotiating table w/out preconditions, agree on a common broker\*, and **stay there until they hammer out a deal** _they can all live with_? Doesn’t have to be perfect, doesn’t have to please them all, it just has to to stop the interminable cycle of murderous hatred & death. _But_ you have to have _two recognized sovereign nations_ before you can step away from the the table. Time is not an issue. > > \*I’d pick the Swiss. They so neutral they are genderless. So they should agree to sit down with any preconditions, and not leave until there are two recognized sovereign nations? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/232 "2012-11-19T15:34:44Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > When they are doing it and causing death, fear and devastation among the civilian populace, they call that terrorism where I come from. So any military action which causes death, fear, and significant property damage to civilian populations is “terrorism” in your view? Or do you have a separate definition when the military action in question is being perpetrated by Israel? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/233 "2012-11-19T15:36:31Z")
Slight problem in so much as no Israeli Gov has the slightest desire to create a sovereign Palestine: three generations of refugees and almost 2/3 of a century later, it might be helpful if people started to realise the realpolitic. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/234 "2012-11-19T15:51:35Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > When they are doing it and causing death, fear and devastation among the civilian populace, they call that terrorism where I come from. Exactly. Lobbing rockets into Israel is terrorism. Israel is being exceedingly careful and precise in its response to this ongoing terrorism. Gaza and Hamas is very lucky it isn’t in the US. It would be a US military installation by now. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/235 "2012-11-19T15:56:47Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Whatever. Hundreds of Americans have died due to Drug War going on at the Mexican Border. The U.S has not invaded Mexico City or sent drones in. You see, just because someone is Mexican and committed a crime against Americans, doesn’t mean that they are on official government business from Mexico City. Not exactly a tight analogy there to what’s happening though. If the Mexican cartels were deliberately firing rockets at US cities and Mexico was either looking the other way or, more likely, involved directly or indirectly, you can bet that the US (or any other country in the world) would retaliate. As it is, the US does send in law enforcement types to help the Mexicans with their ongoing and vicious fight with the drug cartels…something that, interestingly enough, the Palestinian government in Gaza doesn’t really do wrt the ‘kids’ tossing rockets from all along the border at Israeli cities. > [@](#): > > Conversely, if a group of kids find and fire a rocket toward Israel, that doesn’t mean the act was sponsored by Hamas or condoned by the people of Gaza. What a load of horseshit. ‘Kids’ are the ones firing these rocket attacks? Just finding these rockets laying about the country side and firing them off on a lark, eye? Do you have any evidence that Hamas (Hamas for the sake of the gods!!) has tried to curtail any of these rocket attacks or in any way has done anything at all to forestall them? > [@](#): > > You see, in the U.S, we don’t kill people in neighboring countries unless we have proof of malfeasance nor do we assume the acts of an individual are the will of the many. We don’t have either of our neighbors or groups acting within our neighbors territory tossing rockets at us periodically for years on end either, so that tends to make us a bit less likely to launch military raids in their territory. However, we certainly didn’t and don’t hesitate to send in armed drones or launch commando raids into countries that do harbor ill intent against the US (such as, oh, say Pakistan). ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/236 "2012-11-19T16:00:02Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What exactly is your view about Hamas’ position regarding the rocket attacks? > > Do you think that Hamas supports the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is indifferent to the rocket attacks? Do you think Hamas is against them but unable to stop them for whatever reason? > > Also, what exactly is Israel doing differently based on this misguided policy you have pointed out? Can I take it you support Israeli strikes against actual terrorists who are reasonably believed to be involved in rocket attacks (regardless of whether Hamas has officially sanctioned those terrorists)? I’d be the first to be on the wanting side of getting some facts behind these rocket attacks coming from Gaza - regardless of the fact that their effect is exaggerated to the point of absurd. All we know is via Israelis sources. However, do you have any idea what life is like in Gaza? Just to think about this surreal situation where – with cooperation of Egypt military – Gaza is being held on a calorie count blockade and their land and houses constantly taken and demolished. It’s like playing a Russian roulette – anyone in Gaza can get either expelled, or their land taken over for whatever reason, or their house demolished, or simply, killed or put in Israeli jail. One thing people need to realize is once you hold people in such a state of collective punishment where specific instance of that punishment is subject to a random whim of Israel you can no longer analyze these poor people using rational logic; like why they don’t do this and why don’t they do that etc sitting comfortably in Starbucks sipping latte and acting outraged at how stupid people can be sometime. However, I’d like to raise this to a level of an accusation that Israel is conducting a strategic psychological war with these incursions and bombing being just a tactic within a long term plan that nobody really knows where it leads and what the end-game is. Further on, it’s not a war in a classic sense – it’s a paradigm of how to live a life as an average Israeli and if an average Israeli is to be ever fervent for a higher cause – whatever that effin cause is – someone’s got to be on the other end of thus induced anxiety. Israeli leadership – not just this one but through generations since inception of the country – needs a war theatre to show their fellow countrymen what will happen to them if we don’t do this to them. For example, high birth rates are a self-fulfilling circle of life and death; think about it, being in a condition that they are Palestinians do have on average high birth rates and every one knows that better life conditions would have a consequence of birth rates going down (as is the case observed throughout the world) but, they are in this condition artificially by Israel and such condition produces these high rates and thus infinite supply of men, women and children to lose land, houses and lives (in doses measured by Israelis) and thus making their depressing situation even worse that makes high birth rates inevitable. And on, and on, and on… into 21st century… ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/237 "2012-11-19T16:16:29Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I’d be the first to be on the wanting side of getting some facts behind these rocket attacks coming from Gaza - regardless of the fact that their effect is exaggerated to the point of absurd. All we know is via Israelis sources. I think there are other sources too, but before I go looking for them, do you deny that Hamas supports the rocket attacks? > [@](#): > > However, do you have any idea what life is like in Gaza? I do. In fact, [here](http://www.hurryupharry.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/610x.jpg) is a picture of Lauren Booth in Gaza. Note the overflowing store shelves. And it doesn’t look like she’s hurting for calories either. > [@](#): > > However, I’d like to raise this to a level of an accusation that Israel is conducting a strategic psychological war with these incursions and bombing being just a tactic within a long term plan that nobody really knows where it leads and what the end-game is. Then why did Israel withdraw from Gaza? What were the Israelis trying to accomplish by withdrawing? Is it really so hard to believe that Israel (1) wants nothing to do with Gaza; and (2) is mainly motivated by self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/238 "2012-11-19T16:27:20Z")
RedFury: > [@](#): > > \*I’d pick the Swiss. They so neutral they are genderless. Not a bad choice. They banned minarets, AND kosher slaughter. That’s pretty even-handed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/239 "2012-11-19T16:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=newcomer] I’d be the first to be on the wanting side of getting some facts behind these rocket attacks coming from Gaza - regardless of the fact that their effect is exaggerated to the point of absurd. All we know is via Israelis sources. [/QUOTE] Well, how about Wiki…or are they part of the great Jewish Rocket Conspiracy? > [@](#): > > Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[1][2] as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[3] According to research done by the Social work department at the Sapir Academic college, an estimated 15,000[4] people from Sderot suffer from PTSD and an estimated 1,000 are undergoing treatment.[5] > > The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting the Israeli city of Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha, WS-1B[6] and Grad rockets,and in 2011-2012 to the cities of Kiryat Gat,Gedera and Ramat Negev[7]. In 2012, Israel’s capital Tel Aviv and Jerusalem were targeted with locally made “M-75” and Iranian Fajr-5 rockets respectively.[8] A few projectiles have contained white phosphorus.[9][10][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] > > Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[16] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[17][18][19][20] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. > > Defenses constructed specifically to deal with the weapons include fortifications for schools and bus stops as well as an alarm system named Red Color. Iron Dome, a system to intercept short-range rockets, was developed by Israel and first deployed in the spring of 2011 to protect Beersheba and Ashkelon, but officials and experts warned that it would not be completely effective. Shortly thereafter, it intercepted a Palestinian Grad rocket for the first time.[21] > > Israel has responded to the attacks with several military operations in the Gaza Strip, among them Operation Rainbow (May 2004), Operation Days of Penitence (2004), the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, Operation Autumn Clouds (2006), Operation Hot Winter (2008),Operation Cast Lead (2009), and Operation Pillar of Defense (2012). So, the Palestinians have been tossing rockets periodically into Israel since 2001(!!), and while the death rate has been small (due in part because the Israelis have fortified their homes, schools, hospitals, etc from rocket attack…an unreal step that I doubt any other country would take in the face of over a fucking DECADE OF ROCKET ATTACKS ON THEIR CIVILIANS), the trauma has been pretty deep, especially in the more heavily targeted towns along the border. > [@](#): > > However, do you have any idea what life is like in Gaza? Imagine what life must be like in those Israeli border towns…never knowing if a rocket might be on it’s way to kill you or your family or friends. That probably sucks pretty hard to, wouldn’t you say? > [@](#): > > Just to think about this surreal situation where – with cooperation of Egypt military – Gaza is being held on a calorie count blockade and their land and houses constantly taken and demolished. It’s like playing a Russian roulette – anyone in Gaza can get either expelled, or their land taken over for whatever reason, or their house demolished, or simply, killed or put in Israeli jail. And to end the blockade all they have to do in Gaza is to stop firing rockets into Israel and get rid of Hamas, a known terrorist organization, and elect someone else to run the PA in Gaza. Seems simple enough to me…keep Hamas in power in Gaza means the blockade goes on. Keep tossing rockets into Israel means that periodically the Israelis are going to strike back. > [@](#): > > One thing people need to realize is once you hold people in such a state of collective punishment where specific instance of that punishment is subject to a random whim of Israel you can no longer analyze these poor people using rational logic; like why they don’t do this and why don’t they do that etc sitting comfortably in Starbucks sipping latte and acting outraged at how stupid people can be sometime. Another thing that people need to realize is that, curiously enough, when you continuously attack a sovereign state with a powerful military that sometimes they will strike back at you. If you send in people wearing explosive underwear to get on crowded buses or go to malls and such then the folks you are doing that too might get a bit pissed off sometimes and strike back. When you toss rockets at civilian cities for over a decade, well, sometimes they might toss bigger and more powerful rockets back, or send in their troops and tanks to try and find those who are doing this stuff. And when you hide your attacks among your own civilian population in the expectation that when you DO piss off those folks with that more powerful military some non-zero number of your civilians are going to be caught in the cross fire, well, it’s a self fulfilling prophesy. Of course, that’s exactly what Hamas WANTS to happen, as it will keep the cycle of violence going and keep the volunteers for that explosive underwear or rocket lighters rolling in. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/240 "2012-11-19T17:01:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Don’t know about the size of Gaza, but their fertility rate (and population size) is probably exaggerated for propaganda and aid purposes. > > As far as the conflict with Israel goes, they just need to stop attacking Israel and the conflict will end. Really? And the blockade will magically end and Israeli colonization will stop? Normally I would expect some “thrashing” when your life is being choked out of you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=13)