# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/261 "2012-11-19T18:57:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well yeah, 'cause it’s not like there are any folks in Palestine or from Hamas who use over the top rhetoric, right? 😛 Anyone can all learn to use the [**Hasbara Handbook**](http://www.muzzlewatch.com/wp-content/wujshasbara.pdf) to suit their own agenda. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/262 "2012-11-19T19:01:16Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Anyone attempting to portray this conflict (at least in the long term) with Palestinians as victims of Israel is either misinformed or selling something. Anyone that claims Israelis are the victims in this one-sided carnage is too biased to have their opinion even considered. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/263 "2012-11-19T19:02:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Anyone that claims Israelis are the victims in this one-sided carnage is too biased to have their opinion even considered. Sadly, for you, no one has said this. But a strawman by any other name smells as sweet… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/264 "2012-11-19T19:08:22Z")
And if your sheep come over and eat my lawn and I turn them into a lovely sweater so you sue me for not using union labor and I destroy your garage with cluster bombs and you blow up my family with a heat-seeking missile and I vow revenge with oceans of blood, where does that leave us? With something very much like the Arab-Israeli conflict. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/265 "2012-11-19T19:25:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sadly, for you, no one has said this. But a strawman by any other name smells as sweet… Parse this, amigo: > [@Zeriel](#): > > Anyone attempting to portray this conflict (at least in the long term) with Palestinians as victims of Israel is either misinformed or selling something. What’s that smell? Oh, right! I love the smell of Napalm in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/266 "2012-11-19T19:28:45Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And if your sheep come over and eat my lawn and I turn them into a lovely sweater so you sue me for not using union labor and I destroy your garage with cluster bombs and you blow up my family with a heat-seeking missile and I vow revenge with oceans of blood, where does that leave us? > > With something very much like the Arab-Israeli conflict. That was awesome. Thanks, I needed that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/267 "2012-11-19T19:30:22Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > A thief shooting at its victims can never call it self-defense. Just out of curiousity - is it your opinion that Israelis cannot legitimately exercise self-defense vs. Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/268 "2012-11-19T19:35:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Just out of curiousity - is it your opinion that Israelis cannot legitimately exercise self-defense vs. Palestinians? As long as the _reverse_ holds true, they obviously can. Which leads to the current clusterfuck, who is retaliating against whom? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/269 "2012-11-19T19:40:32Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > As long as the _reverse_ holds true, they obviously can. Which leads to the current clusterfuck, who is retaliating against whom? Nobody denies that Palestinians can defend themselves. The trouble is that firing random rockets does not appear to be “defensive” in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/270 "2012-11-19T19:47:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Kinda why I’m really pleased with how well the Iron Dome system is working, and the progress being made on the directed-energy anti-missile systems that Raytheon is working on. It’s not going to be too long now before preventing rocket attacks with 99%+ efficiency is going to be a matter of paying less than it costs to actually fire back, and at that point it becomes a lot more feasible to ignore the rockets and try to build some rapport with the next generation. Until they start adding chemical, biological or radiologicals to their rockets & mortars. I just don’t see a politically correct and acceptable level of terrorism here. The terrorism has to go away completely, forever. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/271 "2012-11-19T19:49:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Well, if I’d stolen my neighbor’s house I might, just might, have a minor clue as to why he is pissed off – and if I launched an RPG\* at him in retaliation I might even understand why he’d try to hit me back with a Molotov Cocktail\*. > > A thief shooting at its victims can never call it self-defense. > > \*Because, you see, I am rich and he is not. Now now, I didn’t say you stole your neighbors house. I am saying you had a land dispute, and you both still have houses, though there has been a lot of accrimony and fighting. Eventually a court decided in your neighbors favor, but you are of course still super bitter. Of course, this analogy fails because you view Israel, at heart, as theives who took land and won’t give it back. Which is, of course, blatantly false. (see, Gaza, West Bank, Sinai, etc). Follow up question for you, that I expect you to dodge around: What are the borders you think are fair, and what should the Israeli’s attitude towards the multiple attacks against them (unprovoked, save their existence) be? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/272 "2012-11-19T19:52:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nobody denies that Palestinians can defend themselves. The trouble is that firing random rockets does not appear to be “defensive” in any meaningful sense. I would like **RedFury** to address this issue. Hamas fires rockets, unprovoked, into Israel all the time. How is that defensive? Prediction: It’s Israel’s fault, because they are there, on “stolen land”. I will be very surprised if **RF** replies with anything else. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/273 "2012-11-19T20:03:50Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Parse this, amigo: > > What’s that smell? Oh, right! I love the smell of Napalm in the morning. Seems simple enough to me, and smells of either straw or confusion. Zeriel is saying that anyone who is taking the rather simplistic view that the Palestinians are victims of Israel (full stop) is either uninformed or is trying to sell something. I’d go with ‘uninformed’ for most of the pro-Palestinians posters in these sorts of threads, since, as usual once the subject is dug into all sorts of ridiculous and uninformed BS comes out. But, your quote in no way demonstrates this from Zeriel: [QUOTE=RF] Anyone that claims Israelis are the victims in this one-sided carnage is too biased to have their opinion even considered. [/QUOTE] Zeriel isn’t claiming that Israel is the victim or that the carnage is one sided…that’s YOUR strawman, which is what I pointed out in what you quoted from me, mi amigo. Verdad? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/274 "2012-11-19T20:21:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A blockade can be an act of war. But the victim pretty much has to declare it as such. If Gaza were to say, outright, “The blockade is an act of war,” then, yeah, it would be. And that declaration of war would permit Israel to perform other acts of war. > > It has, instead, pleased Hamas to engage in an undeclared series of hostilities, trying to make any military retaliation seem unwarranted. > > (Has Israel ever formally declared themselves to be at war with Gaza or Hamas? If not, why not? If someone fired that many rockets at me, I’d declare war on 'em…) Are you under the impression that Hamas doesn’t consider itself at war with Israel? And in turn Israel is waging war on the people who live in areas controlled by Hamas. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Who do you mean by “Palestine”? > > What group represents them. > > Anyway Bill Clinton did what you suggested at Camp David. > > How did that turn out? I was kidding. Neither side seems particularly eager to trust a guy they think is playing for the other team. > [@RedFury](#): > > Ridiculous. > > How could anyone in their right mind – other than Israelis of course – accept the US as an “honest broker” between the sides? Believe me, they ‘help’ aplenty already: > > [**Israel has received more U.S. military assistance than any other country, both in terms of grant aid and military sales on a concessional basis.**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) – hell, they are the only country in the world that is allowed to use up to 25% of that aid on their _own_ military R&D. > > [**In 2007, the United States increased its military aid to Israel by over 25%, to an average of $3 billion per year for the following ten year period**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) > > And let’s not even discuss the total immunity from International Law that Israel operates under by dint of the power of the US veto in the UN Security Council. Though you are welcome to count them yourself: > > [**U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel**](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html) Funny, given poltical rhetoric in the US, you would think that Obama was in the bag for the Palestinians. > [@Zeriel](#): > > To my way of thinking, and this is a harsh thing to say: if that’s what Hamas wants, why on earth is Israel giving it to them? > > Personally, in Israel’s shoes, I’d be trying a combination of wet covert tactics using the Mossad or special forces to surgically eliminate rocket launch sites without civilian casualties, combined with more aggressive deployment of Iron Dome which by all accounts is performing exceptionally well in the border communities under threat. I think one of the theories offered here has been that there is an israeli election coming up. > [@Shodan](#): > > I think Hamas gets them from Iran. > > Regards, > Shodan And I think they might be smuggling stuff in through the Egyptian border. > [@Malthus](#): > > Nobody denies that Palestinians can defend themselves. The trouble is that firing random rockets does not appear to be “defensive” in any meaningful sense. What form of “meaaningful” defense can they undertake? There is a huge assymetry in military power, hence assymetrical warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/275 "2012-11-19T20:26:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What form of “meaaningful” defense can they undertake? There is a huge assymetry in military power, hence assymetrical warfare. Assymetric warfare _can_ be used defensively - to defeat an invader (essentially, by convincing them to leave because it is too costly to remain). This isn’t that form of assymetric warfare, as random rocket attacks cannot actually convince the people who (say) live in Tel Aviv to pick up and leave. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/276 "2012-11-19T20:30:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Well, if I’d stolen my neighbor’s house I might, just might, have a minor clue as to why he is pissed off – and if I launched an RPG\* at him in retaliation I might even understand why he’d try to hit me back with a Molotov Cocktail\*. > > A thief shooting at its victims can never call it self-defense. > > \*Because, you see, I am rich and he is not. Red, I hate to tell you but you are living on land “stolen” from Muslims and land where Muslims were slaughtered in vastly larger numbers and ethnically cleansed in vastly larger numbers than even the most bloodthirsty Betar youth member could dream of. That was one of the justifications Al Quaeda used for blowing 190 Spaniards into hamburger in the Madrid train bombings. Based on the logic you expressed, you sympathize and empathize with the Madrid bombers since the people killed in the bombing is dwarfed by the atrocities committed by Spaniards against Muslims. I hate to tell you, but just about all westerners, to one extent or another are Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/277 "2012-11-19T20:34:05Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] What form of “meaaningful” defense can they undertake? There is a huge assymetry in military power, hence assymetrical warfare. [/QUOTE] How’s that ‘defense’ working out for them? Let’s see…they toss a bunch of unguided rockets at Israeli cities, then Israel comes back and bombs the crap out of their C&C, police stations, political administration buildings and any folks with rockets they see. The result of this brilliant ‘defense’ of the homeland seems to be that a lot of Palestinian civilians will be killed or wounded, a lot of infrastructure will be destroyed or damaged, and Hamas will tuck tail, ask for a cease fire, lick it’s wounds, and then go back on the, er, defensive in a few months or a year and toss some more rockets towards Israel, when the cycle can be repeated again. Again…how’s that working out for THE PALESTINIANS? Oh, it’s working out well for Hamas (aside from the ones who have either gotten whacked in this round of fighting, or will be whacked by drones or assassination teams in the future of course)…after all, this keeps the conflict at a nice boil, gains them a ton of potential new recruits and keeps them in power. Win/win for them no doubt. How’s this ‘defense’ working out for the Palestinians though? They seem to, again, be getting the raw end of the stick (jammed up their collective asses). ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/278 "2012-11-19T20:36:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And if your sheep come over and eat my lawn and I turn them into a lovely sweater so you sue me for not using union labor and I destroy your garage with cluster bombs and you blow up my family with a heat-seeking missile and I vow revenge with oceans of blood, where does that leave us? > > With something very much like the Arab-Israeli conflict. If the conflict was anywhere near ballpark balance, it would be over in a New York minute. The only reason it si maintained for so long is b/c Palestinians cannot cause any serious harm to Israel. Everyone knows this by now but I guess it’s a part of propagnda paradigm where people shrug it off easier if its presented as “war of equals”. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/279 "2012-11-19T20:36:38Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I would like **RedFury** to address this issue. Hamas fires rockets, unprovoked, into Israel all the time. How is that defensive? Unprovoked, my ass. This has been answered many times in this thread. By virtue of its illegal blockade Palestine is in a de-facto state of war with Israel. You don’t think their living conditions are ‘provocation’ enough? And let’s not even go into why roughly 80% of them are refugees to begin with. You also ‘forget’ to mention that Israel continually targets Hamas members for ‘extra-judicial’ killings, with many of these attacks resulting in horrific civilian casualties. In fact the approximate kill ratio between the Palestinian terrorists and the IDF is about 12:1 in favor of the latter. Hardly surprising when we are seeing a “war” between the fourth most powerful military in the world – courtesy of the United States and its citizen’s tax dollars, being put to use as we speak – and a third world nation with no army, navy or air force. As I said upthread, how are they supposed to fight back? Restrict them to rocks of a certain size and weight? That’d be fair, right? > [@](#): > > Prediction: It’s Israel’s fault, because they are there, on “stolen land”. I will be very surprised if **RF** replies with anything else. Kreskin, you are not. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/280 "2012-11-19T20:38:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How’s that ‘defense’ working out for them? Let’s see…they toss a bunch of unguided rockets at Israeli cities, then Israel comes back and bombs the crap out of their C&C, police stations, political administration buildings and any folks with rockets they see. The result of this brilliant ‘defense’ of the homeland seems to be that a lot of Palestinian civilians will be killed or wounded, a lot of infrastructure will be destroyed or damaged, and Hamas will tuck tail, ask for a cease fire, lick it’s wounds, and then go back on the, er, defensive in a few months or a year and toss some more rockets towards Israel, when the cycle can be repeated again. > > Again…how’s that working out for THE PALESTINIANS? Oh, it’s working out well for Hamas (aside from the ones who have either gotten whacked in this round of fighting, or will be whacked by drones or assassination teams in the future of course)…after all, this keeps the conflict at a nice boil, gains them a ton of potential new recruits and keeps them in power. Win/win for them no doubt. How’s this ‘defense’ working out for the Palestinians though? They seem to, again, be getting the raw end of the stick (jammed up their collective asses). So, what do you suggest? Sit back and wait until Israel decides it stole enough land, it destroyed enough houses and it killed or imprisoned enough people? Would Israelis do that if theye were in the same situation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=15)