# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/321 "2012-11-20T06:23:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The answer to your query is right in the post you’re quoting. Why do you think that “settlements” are “stolen”, but Yaffo or Akko aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/322 "2012-11-20T06:42:56Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > :rolleyes: That is a brilliant, thoughtful response which shows a very nuanced understanding of the situation as opposed to an understanding based on propoganda and knee jerk responses base on prejudice and ignorance. That said, please answer my questions. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/323 "2012-11-20T09:18:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why do you think that “settlements” are “stolen”, but Yaffo or Akko aren’t? Because I am being magnanimous to Israel in order to stop the bloodshed. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/324 "2012-11-20T09:33:25Z")
Apropos of nothing: [**Israel: Still not doing Gandhi very well**](http://mondoweiss.net/2012/01/israel-still-not-doing-gandhi-very-well.html) There is no worst blind than the one that does not want to see. * * * **Malthus** , wind speed keeps picking up: [**Worldwide protests against Israeli aggression in Gaza**](http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/worldwide-protests-against-israeli-aggression-in-gaza.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/325 "2012-11-20T09:35:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Because I am being magnanimous to Israel in order to stop the bloodshed. Thanks for nothing. Hamas, though, is not willing to make this distinction. That’s why the rockets and that’s why the retaliation. Hope this makes all this clearer for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/326 "2012-11-20T11:23:37Z")
I am a little late to the party so forgive me if I’m completely wrong. My reading and research on this issue tells me that Jewish people began buying land in Palestine in 1880 as part of the nascent Zionist movement. That process continued over the next 60 years. Arab (Palestinian) land owners sold to people they believed were naive immigrants. When the state of Israel was declared in 1948 it was immediately attacked by 3 million Arab soldiers. The Palestinian people were told to get out of the way while “the Jews are driven into the sea” and willingly moved out. Their belief was they would return home and share the spoils of war. Unfortunately for them that didn’t work out. We should have compassion for the Palestinians of today because they deserve a peaceful life like anyone else but while their leaders preach war and hatred, their situation can only get worse. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/327 "2012-11-20T11:26:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Thanks for nothing. Hamas, though, is not willing to make this distinction. That’s why the rockets and that’s why the retaliation. Hope this makes all this clearer for you. Hamas =/= Palestinians. That said, a whole lot of good it’s done Abbas to play the peacemaker. [Gaza Crisis Poses Threat to Faction Favored by U.S.](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/world/middleeast/hamas-strengthens-as-palestinian-authority-weakens.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) > [@](#): > > \*\*In the daily demonstrations here of solidarity with Gaza, a mix of sympathy and anguish, there is something else: growing identification with the Islamist fighters of Hamas and derision for the Palestinian Authority, which Washington considers the only viable partner for peace with Israel. > > \ > > Israel is also threatening Mr. Abbas, even hinting that it may give up on him, as he prepares to go to the United Nations General Assembly on Nov. 29 to try to upgrade the Palestinian status to that of a nonmember state. The Israelis consider this step an act of aggression, and even some Palestinians say it is somewhat beside the point at this stage. > > \ > > Mr. Abbas, whose popularity has been on the decline as the Palestinian Authority faces economic difficulty and growing Israeli settlements, also ran into trouble not long before the Gaza fighting began when he seemed to give up on the Palestinian demand of a right of return to what is now Israel.\*\* Hope that clears things up for _you_. And no need to thank me. Really. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/328 "2012-11-20T13:07:16Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > We should have compassion for the Palestinians of today because they deserve a peaceful life like anyone else but Well what needs to happen is for them to be absorbed by their host countries just like Israel absorbed the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were chased out of the Arab world. Just like Germany absorbed the hundreds of thousands of ethnic Germans who were expelled from Eastern Europe after World War II. I’m not aware of any other group where “refugee” status is passed down from parent to child without end. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/329 "2012-11-20T14:08:35Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Worldwide protests against Israeli aggression in Gaza**](http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/worldwide-protests-against-israeli-aggression-in-gaza.html) People are still biased agianst Jews, wow, is it Tuesday already? I wo nder why we don’t see similarly huge demonstrations against the Syrian regime, which has killed more Syrians than one cares to count. Well, because they aren’t world-conquering Jews, I suspect. [QUOTE=Ken001] When the state of Israel was declared in 1948 it was immediately attacked by 3 million Arab soldiers. [/QUOTE] While it is true the country was immediately attacked, it is certainly not true that their opponents mustered three million soldiers to do it. That’s a presposterously high number. That would have been one of the largest armies ever assembled for a single campaign and thre’s no possible way those countries could have raised such a gigantic army. I doubt the Arab forces numbered 100,000. Aditionally, the old saw about how the Palestinians just “got out of the way” is, as you can probably guess, a little silly. Many of them were driven from their homes by Israeli forces. If they simply left as a matter of convenience, to step out of the way of the fighting, they would be the only people in the history of the world I can think of who have ever done that. They ran from killing and explosions, as people tend to do, and in many cases were expelled by force. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/330 "2012-11-20T14:23:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Hamas =/= Palestinians. This is true. Especially since the members of Hamas are willing to shoot their Palestinian brothers if they go against the party line. cite: [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/world/middleeast/suspected-collaborator-with-israel-executed-in-gaza.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/world/middleeast/suspected-collaborator-with-israel-executed-in-gaza.html?_r=0) > **[Abusive System: Failures of Criminal Justice in Gaza (Human Rights Watch) |...](https://www.scribd.com/document/109068591/Abusive-System-Failures-of-Criminal-Justice-in-Gaza-Human-Rights-Watch)** > > Human Rights Watch is dedicated to protecting the human rights of people around the world. We stand with victims and activists to prevent discrimination, uphold political freedom. We investigate and expose human rights violations and hold abusers... > **[Hamas hangs three Gaza prisoners](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2012/4/7/hamas-hangs-three-gaza-prisoners)** > > Palestinian convicted of collaborating with Israel and two men deemed complicit in murder executed in Gaza City. It also seems, from what I have read, that Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel at all, ever. Where, may I ask, is your condemnation for the intransigent Hamas position? From the Hamas charter: > [@](#): > > Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences: [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.” Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: “The people of Syria are Allah’s whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow.” (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.) > > Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation.When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The ‘ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries. This is an organization that will not seek peace, and will not accept a “2 state solution”, and says so very clearly. Yet you only condemn Israel, with no harsh words for Hamas, ever. You have no harsh words for the host nations, who refuse to take in refugees. You, sir, are ideologically blinded. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/331 "2012-11-20T14:41:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **Malthus** , serious question. Does it give you any pause at all to notice that in this thread – as in virtually any where the topic of IP comes up – you have Americans as a whole posting in chorus defending most of Israel’s actions, while the few dissenters present almost always happen to be posters from other nations? Think there might be some sort of cognitive dissonance between the way Americans view Israel vs the way the rest of the world does? > > Just taking a quick look at the “who posted” column shows me that out of approximately 50 people that posted, there have been only two Americans who disagree with Israel while, AFAICT, three out five foreigners do. > > Is the disconnect really that wide or is it (more) reflective of the SDMB culture itself? As I said upthread, I don’t frequent many forums but the times I’ve read Dem Underground, I did find a much more balanced view – and poster distribution – on this whole issue. Just seems so insular in here… First, I’m not an American - I’m Canadian. I’ll assume the term “American” means “North American” for this purpose. 😉 Second, the vast majority of posters here (and worldwide) who actually care about this issue and are not from the ME itself are either European or North American. There are serious cultural and historical differences between the European and North American experiences that explain why NAs generally (but of course not universally) support Israel, while the reverse is true in Europe. 1. Different experience re: colonialism. The European political landscape is characterised by reaction against previously-existing colonial empires, and the temptation of Euros is to see Israel as a colonialist hold-over. North Americans have a much different mythology of colonialism, based on pioneers and the frontier, and are more inclined to analogize Israel thus. 2. Legacy re: Jews. Half of the Jewish population of Israel, of course, fled from Europe to escape sometimes-murderous European hatred of Jews - from the Nazis, and earlier (and later), from the Russians. Those Euro countries not collaborating in their murder and/or displacement generally (some heroic exceptions aside) did little to help them - and this includes countries that fought against the Nazis. This resonates with many Americans, whose own ancestors also in many cases fled Europe. Euros generally state that this is all history and over and done with, and this is probably true to a great degree, but clearly this shared history has an impact on both Israelis and Euros. It seems a rule in life that if you do someone a bad turn, it is tempting to think badly of them thereafter. In short, Americans tend to feel more sympathy towards Israel because the set of national myths that most Americans implicitly believe in resonates with the Israeli situation. In this particular case, of course, that sympathy is bonded by a shared set of enemies - the feeling that the same Islamicist types who hate Israelis also hate Americans, and would do so even if Americans did not support Israel. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/332 "2012-11-20T14:46:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… Hamas has repeatedly declared that they are at war with Israel and Israel is at war with them. Which side insists that every one of their citizens has to join the military and puts billions into financing it? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/333 "2012-11-20T15:03:04Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Which side insists that every one of their citizens has to join the military and puts billions into financing it? Austria and Switzerland? Those evil bastards! ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/334 "2012-11-20T15:06:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I wo nder why we don’t see similarly huge demonstrations against the Syrian regime, which has killed more Syrians than one cares to count. QFT > [@](#): > > Aditionally, the old saw about how the Palestinians just “got out of the way” is, as you can probably guess, a little silly. Many of them were driven from their homes by Israeli forces. If they simply left as a matter of convenience, to step out of the way of the fighting, they would be the only people in the history of the world I can think of who have ever done that. They ran from killing and explosions, as people tend to do, and in many cases were expelled by force. As often happens, reality is somewhere in the middle. Arab leaders very definitely **did** call upon the Palestinians to move out of the way “for a short time until our swift victory” (paraphrasing mine); some Palestinians did, others were driven out for the usual reasons people are displaced during war (including some cases of Israeli forces cowing them into flight, there’s no denial of this fact,) and yet many others never did flee and became the base for the significant minority Arab population still living in Israel. This latter group has full citizenship and the same _de jure_ rights as Jews and any other citizens. _De facto_, there deplorably remains plenty of unofficial discrimination against Arabs withtin the Jewish population – although right now I think it’s at least marginally more understandable than discrimination based on race, sexual preference or gender; _some_ Arabs really _are_ fighting us, so significant parts of the population hating _all_ Arabs as a result is an unfortunate but probably unavoidable consequence. it will take a few generations of peace to get this to die out… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/335 "2012-11-20T15:46:58Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yes. Of course, unlike what is currently happening it would all be very humane. They’d be allowed to eat, sleep, go to the bathroom and even take the odd coffee break or two. > > Unless of course, you either think the current cycle on endless retaliations by either side is ‘good enough’ or would go further as the late Ariel Sharon’s son, the apparently even more deranged, Gilad, proposes in his latest “article” in the J. Post: > > [**A decisive conclusion is necessary**](http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter) > > . > > The Final Solution indeed. Just like The Final Solution. Oh, glaringly obviously like The Final Solution. So obviously like the Final Solution the Jews themselves don’t even realize the supreme bitter irony that they themselves are implementing The Final Solution. Hiroshima was The Final Solution. Every daily carpet bombing, massacre, isolated murder, civilian death and wounding during every war–let alone the ones that occur daily–but this is The Final Solution. (Actually, out-and-out Genocide, because the Jews don’t have sole use of historic guilt-mongering.) God, that Final Solution was rough, and that’s what the Israelis (the Jews) have been itching to do forever, if they only could, and have been slowly doing so. The Jews’ very existence is based on a Final Solution of the Palestinian problem, and until they fully implement The Final Solution, unless good concerned people throughout the world–who have read History and recognize a Final Solution when they see one–stop them, the unique (except for its horrific, ironic precedent) Final Solution suffered by the Palestinians will continue. I know about The Final Solution, and I’m glad that much of the world has seen the parallels. I’ve read books and seen movies and photos. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/336 "2012-11-20T16:22:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The Final Solution indeed. > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Just like The Final Solution. Oh, glaringly obviously like The Final Solution. I’m tempted to treat this as trolling, but I will settle for instructing you two to tone down your rhetoric and attempt to remain somewhere near any kind of facts. And **RedFury** and **Ibn Warraq** , both of you need to stop sniping at each other. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/337 "2012-11-20T16:25:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I wo nder why we don’t see similarly huge demonstrations against the Syrian regime, which has killed more Syrians than one cares to count. It’s also killed far more Palestinian Arabs than have died in the recent hostilities in Gaza. And yet somehow the “Pro-Palestinians” are strangely silent. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/338 "2012-11-20T16:30:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In short, Americans tend to feel more sympathy towards Israel because the set of national myths that most Americans implicitly believe in resonates with the Israeli situation. In this particular case, of course, that sympathy is bonded by a shared set of enemies - the feeling that the same Islamicist types who hate Israelis also hate Americans, and would do so even if Americans did not support Israel. :rolleyes: “A shared set of enemies?” The worst part here is that you really seem to beleive thsi tripe :o ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/339 "2012-11-20T16:43:40Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It’s also killed far more Palestinian Arabs than have died in the recent hostilities in Gaza. And yet somehow the “Pro-Palestinians” are strangely silent. They aren’t ‘strangely silent’. They expect no better of violent dictatorships. They do expect better of Israel and other democracies. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/340 "2012-11-20T16:44:56Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > :rolleyes: > > “A shared set of enemies?” > > The worst part here is that you really seem to beleive thsi tripe :o The point (which you appear to be missing) is that “tripe” or not many Americans believe (rightly or wrongly) that Islamicists hate them and are their enemies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=18)