# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/21 "2012-11-16T02:26:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is that supposed to be the reason you didn’t mention the rockets and suggested this was related to the Israeli elections instead? Weak. Very, very weak. I’m not interested in excusing the broader situation in Gaza, but in your OP you omitted the single biggest reason for the attack. It seems to me that that’s an acknowledgement you can’t use all the facts to make Israel look bad. Israel hardly needs me to make itself look bad. They are truly awesome at it on their own In any event, rockets weren’t mentioned because it was [**Israel who broke the truce**](http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-shattered-gaza-truce-leading-escalating-death-and-tragedy-timeline). And yes, it very much appears elections-related…why, [**just like the last time**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html) it happened: [**Bodies for Ballots**](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html) > [@](#): > > They say when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But when you are a politician and all you have is a hammer, you must convince voters every problem looks like a nail. This is the only thinking that can explain Israel’s behavior in escalating bombardment of Gaza. > > The Israeli spin machines are out in full force in the hopes of convincing Israelis and the rest of the world that the attacks on Gaza are in self-defense. But anyone following the situation closely and over time will tell you that cannot be the case. > > Gaza is a tiny territory where 1.7 million Palestinians, most of whom are refugees, are denied the right to return to their homes simply because they are not Jewish. It is from this besieged territory that militants have fired mostly rudimentary projectiles at Israel. While Israeli officials are quick to rattle off the numbers of projectiles fired from Gaza, rarely do they tell you what they fire into Gaza, what the effects of this fire is and what the fallout from it is. > > For example, in 2011, the projectiles fired by the Israeli military into Gaza have been responsible for the death of 108 Palestinians, of which 15 where women or children, and the injury of 468 Palestinians, of which 143 where women or children. The methods by which these causalities were inflicted by Israeli projectiles breaks down as follows: 57 percent, or 310, were caused by Israeli aircraft missile fire; 28 percent, or 150, where from Israeli live ammunition; 11 percent, or 59, were from Israeli tank shells; while another 3 percent, or 18, were from Israeli mortar fire. > > Through September 2012, Israeli weaponry caused 55 Palestinian deaths and 257 injuries. Among these 312 casualties, 61, or roughly 20 percent, were children and 28 were female. 209 of these casualties came as a result of Israeli Air Force missiles, 69 from live ammunition fire, and 18 from tank shells. It is important to note that these figures do not represent a totality of Israeli projectiles fired into Gaza but rather only Israeli projectiles fired into Gaza which cause casualties. The total number of Israeli projectiles fired into Gaza is bound to be significantly larger. > > **For context, consider this: more Palestinians were killed in Gaza yesterday than Israelis have been killed by projectile fire from Gaza in the past three years.** – much more at source. Here’s another good read on the topic: [**Wagging the Dog in Gaza: Netanyahu’s Skirmish of Fear (Sternfeld)**](http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/wagging-the-dog-in-gaza-netanyahus-skirmish-of-fear-sternfeld.html) > [@](#): > > Israel has embarked, with its Gaza attack, on the all-too-well-known elections routine. Before the 2009 elections, the defense minister, Ehud Barak, who then led the Labor party, saw his party performing poorly in the national polls. Ehud Olmert, who was the prime minister, needed some public support as well, and the two launched operation “Cast Lead.” It was during Hannukah, and the chosen name provoked famous holiday children song, and an awful name of a vastly used material (lead). > > With the 2013 elections just months away, Barak sees polls for his now rapidly vanishing party sending him to early retirement, and **just like in Hanukkah 2008, Israel decided to break a ceasefire and assassin the Hamas senior military persona** , Ahmad Jaberi. Hamas, as expected, responded with firing rockets on Israel’s southern regions, and to the great satisfaction of both Hamas and Israel, a full-scale war is being evolved… – again, more at source. That said, I bet many a pro-Israel poster would be holding [**a sign like this one**](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7yVeSmCcAAIO6V.jpg:large) if they were on the _Palestinian_ side. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/22 "2012-11-16T02:30:23Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Israel hardly needs me to make itself look bad. They are truly awesome at it on their own And yet… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/23 "2012-11-16T02:32:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You’ll note the rocket that landed at sea near Tel-Aviv was fired _after_ the invasion began. It hit in the outskirts of Tel Aviv, not in the sea. And your use of the word “invasion” is curious, to say the least. Does that mean you believe Hamas has continually “invaded” Israel by firing all those rockets? From the previous CNN link: \*"British Foreign Secretary William Hague issued a statement saying he is “gravely concerned” and calling on all sides to avoid civilian casualties. “Hamas bears principal responsibility for the current crisis. I utterly condemn rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel by Hamas and other armed groups. This creates an intolerable situation for Israeli civilians in southern Israel, who have the right to live without fear of attack from Gaza. The rocket attacks also risk worsening the plight of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, which is already precarious.”\* Hopefully Hamas’ friends and sponsors can talk some sense into it before it plays chicken with civilians’ lives any more. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/24 "2012-11-16T02:41:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Israel hardly needs me to make itself look bad. They are truly awesome at it on their own. Too true, **RedFury** , too true; I especially hate how those evil Jews routinely dress up their 5 & 6 year-old children in fake suicide-bomber vests, and teach them songs celebrating the long anticipated, much hoped for genocide of the all the Palestinian, Arab, and in fact all Muslim people alive today. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/25 "2012-11-16T03:25:41Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Too true, **RedFury** , too true; I especially hate how those evil Jews routinely dress up their 5 & 6 year-old children in fake suicide-bomber vests, and teach them songs celebrating the long anticipated, much hoped for genocide of the all the Palestinian, Arab, and in fact all Muslim people alive today. Indeed. [**Just like this one**](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20340810). ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/26 "2012-11-16T03:29:22Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m pretty sure I don’t care as I doubt [infants](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/15/the-story-behind-the-photo-journalists-11-month-old-son-killed-in-gaza-strikes/) have been firing anything. I don’t know who’s right and who’s wrong. All I know is every few months there’s another spate of articles of new deaths in the gaza strip or in the west bank and a whole lot of people spend a whole lot of words explaining why it’s this or that groups fault and if this or that person would see reason everything would be fine. Well, everything is not fine and I’m just going to sit here and mourn for that kid because I don’t know what else to do. Yes, it’s terrible when [infants](http://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/269115372358213633/photo/1) are in the line of fire, isn’t it? I don’t know what Israel was supposed to do with hundreds of rockets pouring in from Gaza. If El Paso was getting barraged by Juarez, America would mount a military response. As stated on the CNN coverage of the operation, Israel generously uses tactics such as roof knocking and leaflet dropping prior to bombardment. A more vindictive person might say that Israeli leaflet dropping is a disproportionate response, and that the correct measure would be to simply trade rocket for rocket fired indiscriminately at the civilian populace… That wouldn’t be the correct thing to do, and I don’t see what Israel should be doing differently than their current tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/27 "2012-11-16T03:37:52Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Too true, **RedFury** , too true; I especially hate how those evil Jews routinely dress up their 5 & 6 year-old children in fake suicide-bomber vests, and teach them songs celebrating the long anticipated, much hoped for genocide of the all the Palestinian, Arab, and in fact all Muslim people alive today. Oh, please! That doesn’t even deserve a response especially when one group belongs to a first world country and the other lives in conditions not unlike Somalia. I mean, really, it’s not like Israel doesn’t control the utilities, air space, sea ports, and economy of Gaza. Right? The thing about this that frustrates me to no end is that Israel claims they are the bastion of Western values yet the published their assassination of the Hamas leader on Youtube as if this was _Call of Duty_ or _Mass Effect 3_. WTF? Other than terrorist groups, what country does that? The fact my country (as of today) supports this is nauseating; I wish the U.S would follow Israeli example by sending drones into Mexico to kill the cartel leaders and put their kills on Youtube for us gawk at or, better yet, release the video the OBL raid on Netflix. The fact of the matter is Israel should stop treating the Gazans and the Palestinians like a frightening caricature of [_District 9_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_9) and annex the area instead wasting U.S time and pretending a two-state solution is possible. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![PacifistPorcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PacifistPorcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PacifistPorcupine)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/28 "2012-11-16T03:41:49Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In any event, rockets weren’t mentioned because it was [**Israel who broke the truce**](http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-shattered-gaza-truce-leading-escalating-death-and-tragedy-timeline). I’m having some trouble following your source: > [@](#): > > On 29 October the BBC reported that “Militants in Gaza have fired 26 rockets into Israel, officials say, amid a flare-up in fighting which shattered a brief ceasefire between the two sides. No injuries were reported from the barrage, in the south of the country.” The BBC said that, “It came hours after Israeli aircraft hit targets in Gaza, after militants fired rockets following the killing by Israel of a Gazan who Israel said fired mortars at its troops.” Events as stated: 1. Gazan fires mortars at Israeli troops 2. Israeli troops kill said Gazan 3. Militants fire rockets 4. Israeli aircraft hit targets 5. Militants fire more rockets. How did Israel break the cease fire by being shot at? ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/29 "2012-11-16T03:54:49Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The thing about this that frustrates me to no end is that Israel claims they are the bastion of Western values yet the published their assassination of the Hamas leader on Youtube as if this was _Call of Duty_ or _Mass Effect 3_. You are so right; I will be up all night mourning for that august, peace-loving Hamas leader and the myriad of valuable contributions to humanity that he was so savagely stopped from accomplishing in his brief yet noble life, so brutally, tragically cut short. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/30 "2012-11-16T04:14:27Z")
With civil war in Syria to the north, I can understand why Israel might not be in the mood for too much Hamas screwing around in the south right now. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/31 "2012-11-16T04:35:42Z")
> [@PacifistPorcupine](#): > > I’m having some trouble following your source: > Events as stated: > > 1. Gazan fires mortars at Israeli troops > 2. Israeli troops kill said Gazan > 3. Militants fire rockets > 4. Israeli aircraft hit targets > 5. Militants fire more rockets. > > How did Israel break the cease fire by being shot at? Scroll. Notice dates. Read. “Timeline.” It all becomes astonishingly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/32 "2012-11-16T04:40:58Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > 1 - Gaza does border Egypt. > 2 - The timeline (as far as I can tell, and for this event only) is that the Israelis assassinate someone in Hamas. Then the rockets came. And now the retaliation. No. The timeline is: rockets are fired from Gaza to Israel, over weeks, again and again. Israelis finally respond by assassinating the head of military command in Hamas who is responsible for the rockets. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/33 "2012-11-16T05:20:52Z")
So my son had his first air raid siren last night. It’s a rite of passage, I suppose; still, I wish he didn’t have to go through it at such a young age. It’s going to be a fun weekend. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/34 "2012-11-16T06:17:38Z")
The Palestinians ought to move to Syria. They would be safer there. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/35 "2012-11-16T07:19:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Nobody deserves to be under a Hamas government; not your or my worst enemy! The people are trapped under a corrupt regime, Which they voted into power. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/36 "2012-11-16T07:38:56Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Which they voted into power. Doesn’t negate my point: no one deserves such horror. War brings devastation to those who voted for Hamas…and to those who voted against. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/37 "2012-11-16T11:04:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Would someone mind linking me to a map of Gaza? It seems from RedFury’s OP that Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel. Locked in, as he puts it. > > But you know, I coulda sworn Gaza borders Egypt, too. Maybe my memory’s playing tricks on me. There’s a pretty good [interactive map](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2012/11/2012111517327712311.html) from Al Jazeera. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/38 "2012-11-16T11:25:25Z")
Tough guy that Netanyahu. Shows the terrorists Israel can’t be messed with. A vote for him is a vote for the security of Israel. /etc, etc ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/39 "2012-11-16T11:39:28Z")
Another siren. Heard an explosion this time - don’t know if it was a hit or an interception. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/40 "2012-11-16T12:11:07Z")
Well, if you’re going to poke with a big election stick, don’t be surprised if the bars get rattled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=3)