# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/381 "2012-11-21T09:17:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t understand what casualty rates have to do with who is or isn’t right or wrong in a conflict. Since when was being good at war a bad thing? > > In any event, one of the reasons the numbers are so lopsided, aside from Israel having a more talented military force, is simply that Israel puts a great deal of emphasis on protecting its civilians from getting killed. They have an advanced civil defense system to warn civilians and get them to take appropriate shelter. Hamas, conversely, does not want its civilians protected; they want lots of them killed, since this enables them to use the bodies for PR. I would go further than that: Hamas uses human shields. The Arab deaths in this conflict are for the most part the fault of Hamas. So I would describe the casualty rates as follows: People murdered by Hamas: 103 People murdered by Israel: 0 (Actually 103 is too high since a lot of the Arab deaths are terrorists who were correctly and effectively targeted by Israel) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/382 "2012-11-21T09:23:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would go further than that: Hamas uses human shields. The Arab deaths in this conflict are for the most part the fault of Hamas. > Arab deaths are terrorists who were correctly and effectively targeted by Israel) I am so glad these poor SS-soldiers are finally exhonerated. Yes, they burned some villa… there was some collateral damage. But, well the partisans where using civilians as shields, hiding among them. How about we now build a new settlement on the Oradour site. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/383 "2012-11-21T09:24:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I would go further than that: Hamas uses human shields. The Arab deaths in this conflict are for the most part the fault of Hamas. > > So I would describe the casualty rates as follows: > > People murdered by Hamas: 103 > > People murdered by Israel: 0 > > (Actually 103 is too high since a lot of the Arab deaths are terrorists who were correctly and effectively targeted by Israel) Let’s see - 1000+ Israeli Air Force strikes, with 100 Arab casualties, most of them militants. Interesting statistic. For those like **Red Fury** who think that Israelis are out to kill as many Gazans as they can - do you think Israeli Air Force are just horrible shots, utterly incompetent? No other explanation for these numbers, right? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/384 "2012-11-21T09:35:19Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I am so glad these poor SS-soldiers are finally exhonerated. I’m not sure what SS-soldiers you are referring to, so I cannot really comment on your point. But let me ask you this: If a terrorist uses a human shield and someone who legitimately kills the terrorist also kills the human shield in the process, who should be blamed for the death of the human shield? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/385 "2012-11-21T09:54:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Interesting statistic. For those like **Red Fury** who think that Israelis are out to kill as many Gazans as they can - do you think Israeli Air Force are just horrible shots, utterly incompetent? No other explanation for these numbers, right? Even if one believes that Israel has no legitimate right of self-defense, it’s pretty clear that its recent actions in Gaza are motivated by self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/386 "2012-11-21T10:21:55Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > But again, what you’re implying when you say you “expect better of Israel” is that Israel is doing _the same thing_ as Assad is doing in Syria. You are comparing apples and fish simply because they are both edible. I did not bring up syria. Don’t know why you want to pick a fight. Everyone in the Middle East can kill each other for all I care. Sick of the lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/387 "2012-11-21T10:23:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s see - 1000+ Israeli Air Force strikes, with 100 Arab casualties, most of them militants. > > Interesting statistic. For those like **Red Fury** who think that Israelis are out to kill as many Gazans as they can - do you think Israeli Air Force are just horrible shots, utterly incompetent? No other explanation for these numbers, right? Since he apparently pulled them out of his ass, I can’t say one way or another. However, in the real world: Last night: [**By Tuesday, civilians accounted for 54 of the 113 Palestinians killed since the operation began. Some 840 people have been wounded, _including 225 children_, Gaza health officials said.**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/20/hillary-clinton-middle-east_n_2163259.html) That’s roughly 50% civilians murdered. By this morning: [**At least twenty six more Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been killed in Israeli latest raids, raising the toll to 138, while fighters from Gaza fired rockets that killed two Israelis, bringing the death toll in Israel to five since Wednesday**.](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/20121120212739934900.html) Now? Who knows? So you tell me about your much vaunted IDF air force “accuracy.” Or you can keep bragging about Palestinian deaths with your buddy, **Brazil**. In the meantime, I think I’ll go puke. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/388 "2012-11-21T10:36:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In the meantime, I think I’ll go puke. Purging yourself of what you’re full of would probably be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/389 "2012-11-21T11:44:00Z")
So, [there’s been a bus bombing](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352) in Tel Aviv. Not 3 miles from my house, and I believe **extremely** close to **Alessan** ’s. So, **RedFury** , a few questions. Please answer yes or no, if you will: - Do you believe that bombing a bus full of civilians is justified? - Are you happy now? - Are you happier than when ETA blew up those trains in Madrid? Thank you. ETA: Using BBC so that you don’t try to claim that I’m using an “unreliable” or “slanted” Israeli or American source. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/390 "2012-11-21T12:28:38Z")
You want **RedFury** to pretend he’s a commentator on some BREAKING NEWS!!1! channel? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/391 "2012-11-21T12:29:42Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I did not bring up syria. Perhaps not, but I think when people single out Israel for criticism (and I am not saying that you did this), it needs to be pointed out they are doing so. And I am not aware of any evidence that the “Pro-Palestinian” side has conceded that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/392 "2012-11-21T14:20:07Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > You want **RedFury** to pretend he’s a commentator on some BREAKING NEWS!!1! channel? Up to him. What do **you** think? Substitute IRA for ETA and London for Madrid of course. It’s not like you need to study the exact parameters of the bombing? (unless of course your response depends on how many casualties and injuries resulted, and how severe they were… :dubious: ) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/393 "2012-11-21T14:37:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > That’s roughly 50% civilians And most rational people would understand that in a dense urban environment, when your enemy uses its own population as human shields while wearing no uniforms, a 1:1 ratio of legitimate targets to collateral damage is ridiculously surgical. One might also note that in addition to now citing [ElectronicIntifada.com](http://ElectronicIntifada.com) as gospel truth, you’ve now cited Hamas’ own claims about the ratio of civilians killed. Hamas, which purposefully launches its rockets from civilian areas in order to get civilians killed by counter battery fire. That Hamas. You’re taking their word, at face value. Enjoy vomiting. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/394 "2012-11-21T15:07:58Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Up to him. > > What do **you** think? Substitute IRA for ETA and London for Madrid of course Of course. Except, of course, very many people died in Madrid and London. Whoever it was would have achieved more by steering it onto the pavement, so maybe it’s not appropriate to draw too many parallels. Given the region and the timing, we can’t even be sure who was involved. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/395 "2012-11-21T15:11:30Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I did not bring up syria. Don’t know why you want to pick a fight. Everyone in the Middle East can kill each other for all I care. Sick of the lot of them. Wasn’t trying to pick a fight. I was simply responding to your claim that the Palestinian supporters expect thugs like Assad to murder people en masse, but they don’t expect the same from Israel. And I was pointing out that what Assad and what Israel are doing are two different things with vastly different intentions, so they can’t be legitimately compared. But actually, Brazil84 brought up a better point: to say that the pro-Palestinians expect better from Israel (than from violent dictators like Assad), is to admit moral superiority of Israel. I don’t recall any of them making such a claim. Which brings us full-circle to the original question - why is there so much (relative) silence about the massacre going on in Syria? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/396 "2012-11-21T15:32:32Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > If you don’t think the motive and context for beginning this exchange with Hamas was the election, then make the case because it’s pretty clearly central to what is happening. I’m not getting into an argument with you about this. If you are going to post in this thread, make an argument instead of posting the same sarcastic joke over and over. Otherwise I’ll move on to actual warnings. > [@Alessan](#): > > Purging yourself of what you’re full of would probably be a good idea. Save it for the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/397 "2012-11-21T15:33:23Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Of course. Except, of course, very many people died in Madrid and London. > > Whoever it was would have achieved more by steering it onto the pavement, so maybe it’s not appropriate to draw too many parallels. Given the region and the timing, we can’t even be sure who was involved. So, it **does** matter how lucky we happened to get, then? You’re against bombing innocent civilians only if some of the civilians die as a result? OK. Got it. ETA: If you wish, go back 5-7 years and choose one of the bus- or restaurant-bombings that **did** kill multiple people in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netanya… ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/398 "2012-11-21T15:46:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well maybe not Zionism but people on THIS board have said that critics of Israel are antisemites. To be fair I haven’t really noticed it outright. Subtle implication by the boatload though. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/399 "2012-11-21T15:47:16Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Of course. Except, of course, very many people died in Madrid and London. > > Whoever it was would have achieved more by steering it onto the pavement, so maybe it’s not appropriate to draw too many parallels. Given the region and the timing, we can’t even be sure who was involved. Do you think the bombers would have been upset had their bombs been more successful and killed a whole bunch of Israelis on a city bus? We may not know who was responsible this time, but according to that BBC article, Hamas has already praised the bombing of civilians, and there was, apparently, celebratory gunshots in Gaza upon hearing the news. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/400 "2012-11-21T15:47:51Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > So, [there’s been a bus bombing](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352) in Tel Aviv. Not 3 miles from my house, and I believe **extremely** close to **Alessan** ’s. > > So, **RedFury** , a few questions. Please answer yes or no, if you will: > > - Do you believe that bombing a bus full of civilians is justified? > - Are you happy now? > - Are you happier than when ETA blew up those trains in Madrid? > > Thank you. > > ETA: Using BBC so that you don’t try to claim that I’m using an “unreliable” or “slanted” Israeli or American source. Prediction: **RedFury** will dodge this one, just like he dodged my questions earlier. Or he’ll make some veiled allusion to “stolen land” again, hinting but not actually saying that the Israeli’s deserve it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=21)