# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/421 "2012-11-21T17:53:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Israel is doomed!! [Anonymous](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=673087) has decided to weigh in, so it’s all over but the screaming! :eek: Rather old news, they’ve been involved since the second day of the Israeli attack. > [@](#): > > (Why is this thread still in GD??) Because there are two sides to this conflict. Must be a shocking realization to some. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/422 "2012-11-21T17:59:49Z")
If anyone is interested in a bit more info on how Iran is getting weapons and cash into Gaza, the CNN article has more info. I was interested. [http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/19/smuggling-weapons-to-gaza-the-long-way/](http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/19/smuggling-weapons-to-gaza-the-long-way/) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/423 "2012-11-21T17:59:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Never mind this - how are they fixed for spices? > > Regards, > Shodan I’ll answer you content-free snark seriously for once. The point, which obviously escaped you the first time, is the capricious nature of the objects included in the blockade. Unless of course, the Israelis know something we don’t about the murderous capabilities of said spices. It’s like the TSA on steroids. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/424 "2012-11-21T18:05:57Z")
Breaking and welcomed news: [**Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire**](http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/21/15327753-israel-and-hamas-agree-to-gaza-cease-fire) ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/425 "2012-11-21T18:18:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Madrid bombing was conducted by Muslim militants not by the ETA. True; _mea culpa_. Although I don’t think this error invalidates my question. Which reminds me… > [@Noone\_Special](#): > > So, [there’s been a bus bombing](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352) in Tel Aviv. Not 3 miles from my house, and I believe **extremely** close to **Alessan** ’s. > > So, **RedFury** , a few questions. Please answer yes or no, if you will: > > - Do you believe that bombing a bus full of civilians is justified? > - Are you happy now? > - Are you happier than when ETA blew up those trains in Madrid? > > Thank you. **RedFury** , care to answer these questions? As for the cease fire, I will be very happy if it indeed brings in a lengthy (i.e., years) period where no civilians on either side have to suffer. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/426 "2012-11-21T18:22:03Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Another way of looking at it: in a dense urban environment it is next to impossible to not have civilians near the kind of targets Israel has been going for. Fictional. There are plenty of open spaces from which to launch attacks and Hamas could very well segregate its military forces from the civilian population. You seem to have bought into the narrative that Gaza is some sort of open air prison with people housed in cell blocks instead of areas of settlement. But please, feel free to keep talking about how much unrelenting bias you perceive. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/427 "2012-11-21T19:18:32Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Another way of looking at it: in a dense urban environment it is next to impossible to not have civilians near the kind of targets Israel has been going for. That’s the reality of a really, really dense urban environment. > > So describing them as “human shields” is really, really quite silly and merely shows your unrelenting bias. I’m skeptical of the apparent claim that Gaza is uniformly densely populated. I did a Google image search the phrase open space in gaza, and found [this picture](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iRlvfwvIHbg/Szpu30eEyTI/AAAAAAAAAZU/hWOJ3GuGRBs/s1600-h/gaza+11+open+space.jpg) Looks to me like there are plenty of places from which to fire rockets which are not near populated areas. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/428 "2012-11-21T19:58:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Because nothing the Palestinians say could ever be true: > > [B’Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories](http://www.btselem.org/about_btselem) > > Their latest update: > > The past 12 years, a break-down – 29.9.2000-30.9.2012: > > [**Fatalities**](http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp) Right on target. To bad Hamas seems to want their people dead so that folks like yourself can crow about how bad Israel is. I expect you’ll condemn Hamas, for intentionally putting the civilians in harms way. Oh wait, you totally won’t. And yes, the cease fire is a good thing, and I don’t expect it to last through the weekend. I expect to see rocket fire out of Gaza by Friday evening, local time. Idiot clerics will get idiot militants heated up, and they’ll go out and get some more civilians killed. All the IDF’s fault though, right **Red**? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/429 "2012-11-21T20:17:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think Brazil84 laid it out the mentality of those who ask these sort of questions pretty well. > > There was no rebuttal from the Israel apologist side denouncing Brazil84 the way a lot of pro-choice folks denounce Der Trihs. > > Its more than misdirection, the implication is frequently that people are picking on Israel where they wouldn’t pick on others because israel is Jewish. You are basing your entire claim that one can’t criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite on one comment from Brazil to you in a thread in the BBQ pit over a year ago and the failure of the ‘apologists’ of Israel to denounce him? The way Der Trihs is always called out every time he makes over the top comments? Being that this is not the pit, I’ll restrict my commentary on Brazil to noting that his opinions aren’t held in the highest regard; he is best known as the poster who begins 1 in 4 paragraphs with ‘lol’ and maintains a blog where he lists people he has ‘banned’ (apparently the word ‘ignore’ isn’t in his vocabulary) along with a list of his rules of debate. Der Trihs isn’t called out on every over the top comment he makes for the same reason Brazil isn’t; people have grown to expect their behavior. I have been critical of Israel and have never been called or had it implied that I’m an anti-Semite on this board, and the only people I’ve called (or implied) were anti-Semites were in fact anti-Semitic. The happily long departed Sevastopol comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/430 "2012-11-21T20:32:18Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > **RedFury** , care to answer these questions? No ONE is “justified” in killing civilians. Period. > [@](#): > > As for the cease fire, I will be very happy if it indeed brings in a lengthy (i.e., years) period where no civilians on either side have to suffer. Which will only happen when Israel finally adheres to the near unanimous – with only three ‘real’ nations continually voting against: The US, Israel & Australia (US veto ‘wins’) – resolution of the yearly UN General Assembly along the unanimous - one backing of [**The International Court Of Justice**](http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca). Which as you’ll see in its advisory opinion on The Wall ruled against three of the four major points of contention in the dispute: The Settlements, East Jerusalem and West Bank borders. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/431 "2012-11-21T20:35:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Breaking and welcomed news: [**Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire**](http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/21/15327753-israel-and-hamas-agree-to-gaza-cease-fire) I can’t help but be cynical. While not as cynical as the other guy, I still expect rocket attacks on Israeli civilian populations to resume in the absence of military provocation after about six months–that’s about the over-under after previous cease-fires. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/432 "2012-11-21T20:37:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I can’t help but be cynical. While not as cynical as the other guy, I still expect rocket attacks on Israeli civilian populations to resume in the absence of military provocation after about six months–that’s about the over-under after previous cease-fires. “six months”? You’re wildly optimistic. More like six hours. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/433 "2012-11-21T20:38:25Z")
A worthy read: [**Israel and Hamas: How Biases Are Driving the Conflict to the Precipice**](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/israel-and-hamas-how-bias_b_2170762.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*A cursory review of Israel and Hamas’ perceptions of each other suggests that their respective citizenry commonly accepts their assessments. The daily denunciations and the portrayals of each other in evil terms have done nothing but deepen their distrust, intensify their hatred and hostility, and shatter any hope for reconciliation. It is no wonder then that this mindset evolved into a siege mentality leaving no room for any mitigation, moderation, and certainly no accommodation. Yet both sides know deep inside that the other exists and will continue to exist. The death and destruction of recent days will leave nothing more than deeper scars and haunting nightmares. A new ceasefire will eventually be established in the wake of the current violence, even if it were to follow a major Israeli incursion into Gaza. Unless the new cease fire is established on a different basis, it will more than likely follow the pattern of previous ceasefires that served as nothing more than respites to prepare for the next round of ever-more intensified violence. > > Hamas may think that they are riding high and will seek to gain politically from the ashes of the destruction and death of men, women, and children whom they use as human shields. Hamas impresses itself by the outcry of relatively few Palestinians who want revenge and the show of support by the Arab states, but Hamas is deaf to the voices of the majority of Palestinians in Gaza who want to live in peace. They are sick and tired of being subjected to the whims of extremist leaders who wage wars in their names while destroying the very fabric of the society they presumably seek to protect. Hamas has done nothing but use the people as sacrificial lambs to promote its blind ambitions that will do nothing but bring greater havoc, helplessness and hopelessness to the people. > > The Israeli government, on the other hand, pretends to walk the high moral ground when in fact it too subjects its own people to a long and protracted conflict that has robbed the country of much of the values upon which it was founded. The occupation is a curse that justifiably portrays the historically-oppressed Jews as oppressors. Israel has created intolerable conditions in the territories by expropriating land, erecting barriers, building new (and expanding existing) settlements, uprooting olive trees, and depriving ordinary people of living normal lives. By its own actions, Israel is planting the seeds of discontent and extremism among the Palestinians and then blames them for their militant and violent behavior…\*\* – much more at source. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/434 "2012-11-21T20:59:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “six months”? You’re wildly optimistic. More like six hours. … was more like six minutes. > **[Woman arrested for sending obscene pictures from phone](https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Woman-arrested-for-sending-obscene-pictures-from-phone)** > > A 38-year-old woman was arrested this morning for sexually harassing men over the last two months. She is alle At least 12 rockets were fired into Israel Wednesday night in the hour after the cease-fire understanding between Israel and Hamas went into effect at 9 p.m., according to police. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/435 "2012-11-21T21:19:55Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You are basing your entire claim that one can’t criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite For what it may be worth, my position is that (1) concern for the Palestinian Arabs is normally motivated by antagonism towards Israel; and (2) most anti-Israel sentiment is the result (directly or indirectly) of anti-Semitism. Not all but most. It’s the only reasonable explanation for the fact that Israel draws wildly disproportionate criticism. It’s been pointed out that some of the double-standard is due to a recognition that Israel is morally superior. If this recognition were consciously and explicitly stated by those who criticize Israel, then I would be hesitant to call it anti-Semitic. But on the other hand, if it’s subconscious and unstated, then arguably it’s fundamentally anti-Semitic. What do you think drives anti-Semitism anyway? In large part, it’s a subconscious belief (or fear) that Jews really are superior or special. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/436 "2012-11-22T00:30:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Even if one believes that Israel has no legitimate right of self-defense, it’s pretty clear that its recent actions in Gaza are motivated by self-defense. Virtually any other country on the planet would have declared war and pushed Gaza into the sea by now. Israel should take advantage of the iron dome system that selectively ignores missiles not aimed at them and let them fall on the Palestinian side of Jerusalem. Let Hammas kill 2 birds with one stone. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/437 "2012-11-22T01:35:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Virtually any other country on the planet would have declared war and pushed Gaza into the sea by now. > > Israel should take advantage of the iron dome system that selectively ignores missiles not aimed at them and let them fall on the Palestinian side of Jerusalem. Let Hammas kill 2 birds with one stone. There is no “Palestinian side of Jerusalem”. All of Jerusalem is part of Israel and the Israelis deciding to let missiles fall on Arab neighborhoods but not on Jewish neighborhoods would be the equivalent of the US government choosing to let missiles fall on black neighborhoods but not on white neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/438 "2012-11-22T01:47:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think Brazil84 laid it out the mentality of those who ask these sort of questions pretty well. > > There was no rebuttal from the Israel apologist side denouncing Brazil84 the way a lot of pro-choice folks denounce Der Trihs. To echo Dissonance, you are basing your argument that it’s difficult to criticize Israel either on the Dope or in public based on comment made by Brazil84 over a year ago in the Pit. As Dissonance pointed out, Brazil84 is hardly representative of the Dope nor all that respected and is mostly known for responding to arguments with “LOL” and “banning” posters who fail to abide by his “rules.” I can’t go any further without violating the rules, though I’ll note I’m one of the people he “banned” for some conversation that I don’t even remember. Claiming you can’t criticize Israel without being accused of being called an anti-Semite based on Brazil84 is like claiming you can’t say you’re a Republican without being accused of being stupid, racist, and a monster based on comments by a number of posters on this board, including one you already noted. Furthermore, in the comment linked Brazil84 doesn’t claim that all critics of Israel are anti-Semites, but instead that “most probably” are, which is different. Moreover, saying he accused you of being an anti-Semite is a bit incomplete. You asked him if he thought you were an anti-Semite and he said “probably yes.” Was his comment obnoxious? Yes, but what you’re doing is a little like me asking someone if they think I’m lying and when they say “yes” running to the mods and screaming that I’ve been called a liar. Like Dissonance, I’ve been extremely critical of Israel and can’t remember ever being called an anti-Semite. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/439 "2012-11-22T03:06:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > There is no “Palestinian side of Jerusalem”. sure there is, the East side of Jerusalem. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > All of Jerusalem is part of Israel and the Israelis deciding to let missiles fall on Arab neighborhoods but not on Jewish neighborhoods would be the equivalent of the US government choosing to let missiles fall on black neighborhoods but not on white neighborhoods. I disagree with your analogy. There is no movement for independence by black people in this country. I don’t seriously think Israel should forgo the protection of the East Side but if it comes down to war with Gaza there will be a cost associated with this area. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/440 "2012-11-22T04:26:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > sure there is, the East side of Jerusalem. Not according to the Israelis. According to them that is part of Israel and they don’t even allow maps which say otherwise(admittedly in most Arab countries maps depicting Israel are also not allowed). > [@](#): > > I don’t seriously think Israel should forgo the protection of the East Side but if it comes down to war with Gaza there will be a cost associated with this area. I will certainly agree the Israelis are certainly capable of disgusting bigotry as anyone familiar with the distribution of gas masks during the first Gulf War and who’s seen polls of young Israelis on their opinions of Arab Israelis and Avigidor Lieberman can testify, but the Israeli government is not going to be so blatant any more. Fucking over the present absentees is one thing. Nobody knows who they are, not even the westerners who pretend the give two shits about the Palestinians or their cause. I’ll be genuinely surprised if any of the “Israel is TEH EVUL” posters on this site will know what I’m referring to before they scurry over to google. Israel deciding to allow bombs to drop on Israeli citizens who are Arabs and flaunting that before the world? Please, that’s something else. Israel needs to pretend they’re no different than other western democracies. They can’t blatantly show how they’re different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=23)