# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/441 "2012-11-22T08:39:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not according to the Israelis. > > According to them that is part of Israel and they don’t even allow maps which say otherwise(admittedly in most Arab countries maps depicting Israel are also not allowed). Of course they think the LAND belongs to Israel. But don’t for a nano-second think the Palestinians living there do. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I will certainly agree the Israelis are certainly capable of disgusting bigotry as anyone familiar with the distribution of gas masks during the first Gulf War and who’s seen polls of young Israelis on their opinions of Arab Israelis and Avigidor Lieberman can testify, but the Israeli government is not going to be so blatant any more. > > Fucking over the present absentees is one thing. Nobody knows who they are, not even the westerners who pretend the give two shits about the Palestinians or their cause. > > I’ll be genuinely surprised if any of the “Israel is TEH EVUL” posters on this site will know what I’m referring to before they scurry over to google. > > Israel deciding to allow bombs to drop on Israeli citizens who are Arabs and flaunting that before the world? > > Please, that’s something else. > > Israel needs to pretend they’re no different than other western democracies. They can’t blatantly show how they’re different. Is Israel calling for the destruction of Iran or feeding arms to dissidents who then launch them on Iran (or any other Muslim country for that matter). Unlike the religious wars between the various Islamic factions across the region Israel isn’t calling for their destruction. Again, any other country in the world would have launched a full-out war against Hamas a LOOOOONG time ago. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/442 "2012-11-22T08:57:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Again, any other country in the world would have launched a full-out war against Hamas a LOOOOONG time ago. Or: any other country in the world would have negotiated statehood with the Palestinians decades ago. Take you choice - of opinions. To echo a point made earlier, it is quite fascinating to see an issue about which the US population seems so uniquely at odds with the rest of the world - it reminds me of how effective lobbying and media compliance demonized ‘socialized healthcare’ for decades within the US. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/443 "2012-11-22T09:09:54Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Or: any other country in the world would have negotiated statehood with the Palestinians decades ago. You can’t “negotiate statehood” with a group that doesn’t actually want a state. The Palestinian Arabs have been offered a state many times and they’ve always turned it down. Because they don’t actually want a state. What they want is for there not to be a Jewish state. This goes all the way back to the UN Partition Plan in the late 40s which provided for an Arab state substantially larger than what is now referred to as the West Bank and Gaza. The Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan. Chaim Weizmann famously said that the Jews would accept a state that was the size of a tablecloth. The Arabs rejected the UN Partition Plan and went to war to destroy the Jewish state. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/444 "2012-11-22T09:10:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not according to the Israelis. > > According to them that is part of Israel and they don’t even allow maps which say otherwise(admittedly in most Arab countries maps depicting Israel are also not allowed). What do you mean, “allow”? It’s a free country - anyone can draw whatever map they want. Most Israelis, being practical folk, prefer maps that show how things are, rather than how they may think things should be, and right now, East Jerusalem is unified with West Jerusalem. If that changes in the future, they’ll change the maps. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/445 "2012-11-22T09:15:26Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Or: any other country in the world would have negotiated statehood with the Palestinians decades ago. Take you choice - of opinions. I think these options are not mutually exclusive. I think that a responsible government, when its civilians are attacked, should do both things – thwart the attacks by any means possible, including use of force against the attackers _ **and** _ try to figure out diplomatic means for negating the reason for these attacks. On the first point, we appear to disagree (you seem, at least to me, to think that it is **not** Israel’s right, nay **duty** , to fight back when attacked.) On the second point, while I fully agree that we have often been remiss in pursuing diplomatic channels, I’m not really certain that there **is** anything Israel can do that will satisfy Hamas (and their Iranian overlords) other than ceasing to exist. I hope you agree with me that this is not a tenable solution… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/446 "2012-11-22T09:24:12Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Or: any other country in the world would have negotiated statehood with the Palestinians decades ago. Like that Basque state that France and Spain negotiated into existence decades ago… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/447 "2012-11-22T09:39:59Z")
Not to mention the UK, who even today won’t retreat from 100% of Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/448 "2012-11-22T09:46:19Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > There is no reason for Hamas militants to set up shop in the middle of a dense urban environment. No responsible leadership would do that. They have other options to fire rockets from less dense areas, say, from a field rather than a school. So, why are they making this choice, you have to ask yourself. Targets have included: People driving in cars. Government offices. Are you telling me that all other countries limit their car driving and government offices to places away from where there may be civilians? Give me a break. And there’s this: > **[Palestinians count their dead after one of the worst days of the war](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/21/palestinians-count-dead-worst-days)** > > Even as a ceasefire was announced, the death toll was rising amid strikes on targets with little apparent military value > [@](#): > > Then there were the targets. The Israeli army said: “The sites that were targeted were positively identified by precise intelligence over the course of several months.” But many seemed to have little military value. A football stadium blown to bits. The house of a bank director flattened. Media offices wrecked. > > A cluster of missiles destroyed a sprawling warren of offices built by the Israelis themselves to administer the occupation when the Gaza Strip was still under military control. Until it was brought down, the building was used to issue identification cards, passports and the kind of official papers people need to get through life. > > The Israeli military also wrecked two bridges in the centre of the Gaza Strip, making it that much more difficult to move around. Anyone who thinks this is limited to just sites where there are rockets and/or stashes of rockets is seriously deluded. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/449 "2012-11-22T09:52:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure, we get a lot more of the “gee I wonder what is so different about Israel that people criticize israel and not all these other countries that do even worse stuff” > > But for some people it isn’t enough to just IMPLY that antisemitism is the root of criticism of Israel, at least one poster has just come out and said it. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14307373&postcount=278](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14307373&postcount=278) Yes, that is clear cut. But it is a single person. Most of the people that post in these threads are more subtle about it. I have on many occasions been subjected to it myself, especially from FinnAgain. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/450 "2012-11-22T09:57:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Not to mention the UK, who even today won’t retreat from 100% of Ireland. Well there is that pesky majority of people that wants them to stay. Democracy, eh? Unless you are getting all annoyed about the concepts of countries being defined by conflicts centuries ago. In that case, as someone that grew up in Warwickshire I absolutely demand the kingdom of Mercia’s independence is returned and will bomb the fuck out of everyone until I get my way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/451 "2012-11-22T10:00:49Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Well there is that pesky majority of people that wants them to stay. Democracy, eh? > . I can assure you that just as the majority of Protestants in Ireland wanted to remain part of the UK, the majority of Jews in the Territories want to remain part of Israel. Would you be cool with us sawing off a part for them to keep, just like you did with Ulster? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/452 "2012-11-22T10:03:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Like that Basque state that France and Spain negotiated into existence decades ago… I hope you’ve joined the Straightdope Armchair General symposium because you clearly share the appropriate level of nuanced insight. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/453 "2012-11-22T10:05:27Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > This is factually incorrect; while the average population density in the Gaza Strip is indeed very high, it is **not** one huge megalopolis – there’s plenty of open space in the Eastern and Northern parts of the Strip, and some in the South (outside of Rafah) as well, IIRC. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fictional. There are plenty of open spaces from which to launch attacks and Hamas could very well segregate its military forces from the civilian population. You seem to have bought into the narrative that Gaza is some sort of open air prison with people housed in cell blocks instead of areas of settlement. But please, feel free to keep talking about how much unrelenting bias you perceive. > [@brazil84](#): > > I’m skeptical of the apparent claim that Gaza is uniformly densely populated. > > I did a Google image search the phrase open space in gaza, and found [this picture](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iRlvfwvIHbg/Szpu30eEyTI/AAAAAAAAAZU/hWOJ3GuGRBs/s1600-h/gaza+11+open+space.jpg) > > Looks to me like there are plenty of places from which to fire rockets which are not near populated areas. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Another way of looking at it is that if one cares about one’s fellow citizens, one doesn’t set up artillery in said citizens’ backyards and shoot said artillery at random civilians in the next country over. “Human shields” is perfectly apt given that these are terror weapons, not military ones. > [@Noone\_Special](#): > > This is factually incorrect; while the average population density in the Gaza Strip is indeed very high, it is **not** one huge megalopolis – there’s plenty of open space in the Eastern and Northern parts of the Strip, and some in the South (outside of Rafah) as well, IIRC. I refer you all to this reply: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15724368&postcount=448](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15724368&postcount=448) Additionally, I at no point claimed that the Gaza Strip is 100% dense urban areas. I was replying to this post: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And most rational people would understand that in a dense urban environment, when your enemy uses its own population as human shields while wearing no uniforms, a 1:1 ratio of legitimate targets to collateral damage is ridiculously surgical. One might also note that in addition to now citing [ElectronicIntifada.com](http://ElectronicIntifada.com) as gospel truth, you’ve now cited Hamas’ own claims about the ratio of civilians killed. Hamas, which purposefully launches its rockets from civilian areas in order to get civilians killed by counter battery fire. That Hamas. You’re taking their word, at face value. > > Enjoy vomiting. Where FinnAgain refers to it by saying “And most rational people would understand that in a dense urban environment”, which looks kind of weird when he says a few hours later “Fictional. There are plenty of open spaces from which to launch attacks and Hamas could very well segregate its military forces from the civilian population.” I was using FinnAgain’s own words against him. He made one claim about a “dense urban environment” and I offered a different way of looking at it. Unfortunately he seems to change his mind fairly regularly or is suffering from some sort of selective amnesia. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/454 "2012-11-22T10:09:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I can assure you that just as the majority of Protestants in Ireland wanted to remain part of the UK, the majority of Jews in the Territories want to remain part of Israel. Would you be cool with us sawing off a part for them to keep, just like you did with Ulster? I’m pretty sure the majority of Palestinians want to be part of a Palestinian state. Personally I’d be very cool if Israel took their bit _and stuck with it_. A two state solution is _exactly_ what I would like to see. Unfortunately neither side seems to be able to stick to that idea. Israel routinely steals more land and the Palestinians have a tendency to think maybe Israel shouldn’t be there at all. As I’ve always said, both sides are in the wrong in the Middle East. A two state solution where both sides stick to their defined areas is exactly what I want. Neither side has shown the ability to stick to that. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/455 "2012-11-22T11:00:25Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m pretty sure the majority of Palestinians want to be part of a Palestinian state. > > Personally I’d be very cool if Israel took their bit _and stuck with it_. A two state solution is _exactly_ what I would like to see. > > Unfortunately neither side seems to be able to stick to that idea. Israel routinely steals more land and the Palestinians have a tendency to think maybe Israel shouldn’t be there at all. > > As I’ve always said, both sides are in the wrong in the Middle East. A two state solution where both sides stick to their defined areas is exactly what I want. Neither side has shown the ability to stick to that. Not to speak for **Alessan** , but my interpretation is that, in the case of UK / Eire, the UK carved out Ulster out of the island of Ireland, which Eire claims is all theirs. Similarly, those parts of the West Bank with a large concentration of Israelis (Jerusalem’s Old City, Ariel, Gush Etzion, Ma’ale Adumim…) could, by this logic, be “Ulsterized,” based on the fact that the majority of these Israelis would want these area to remain part of Israel, and added, on a permanent basis, to the part of the tract of land between the Mediterranean and the River Jordan which is called “Israel” rather than the part which may eventually be called “Palestine.” Alternatively, it seems to me that it is inconsistent to argue that Ulster should and can remain British, but all parts of the West Bank, 100%, not one centimeter ceded, must become part of the eventual Palestine, no modifications allowed. It’s not even like the “Green Line” a natural boundary – while in the case of UK / Eire it is! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/456 "2012-11-22T11:27:06Z")
Thanks - that’s exactly what I was going for. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/457 "2012-11-22T11:35:56Z")
If Palestinians had a tenth of the opportunities for a better life as the average Israeli, does anyone really think parents would be as eager to go out and acquire a suicide-vest for their kids as soon as they can walk? The fact of the matter is, Isnotreal doesn’t want a successful Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/458 "2012-11-22T12:25:15Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If Palestinians had a tenth of the opportunities for a better life as the average Israeli, does anyone really think parents would be as eager to go out and acquire a suicide-vest for their kids as soon as they can walk?. So you think that it is only poverty that causes fanatic hatred? It has nothing to do with Islamic fanaticism? Those kids in Gaza would have opportunites for a better life if their society educated them with role models for how to live, not how to commit suicide. Schools in America are named after George Washington and Martin Luther King..The schools in Gaza are named after suicide bombers. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/459 "2012-11-22T12:43:54Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > So you think that it is only poverty that causes fanatic hatred? It has nothing to do with Islamic fanaticism? Obviously poverty isn’t the cause, as we only have to look at Israel to see. They are very wealthy and they have fanatical hatred so down to a T, it is government policy, albeit couched in weasel words. > [@chappachula](#): > > Those kids in Gaza would have opportunites for a better life if their society educated them with role models for how to live, not how to commit suicide. > Schools in America are named after George Washington and Martin Luther King..The schools in Gaza are named after suicide bombers. This is all their Israeli neighbours have allowed them to be. Do you think the average person on the street dare say "Can we not call it something else? How about “My Little Pony Day Centre?” without the fanatics that Israel’s fanatics in power have created doing something nasty to them? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/460 "2012-11-22T12:54:45Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Schools in America are named after George Washington Careful there… a fair number of the people critical of Israel in this thread appear to be British. Do you really want to remind them that US schools are often named for that notorious terrorist, who led the natives in a guerrilla campaign against the Glorious Empire, George Washington? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=24)