# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/461 "2012-11-22T13:01:37Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Schools in America are named after George Washington and Martin Luther King..The schools in Gaza are named after suicide bombers. You mean named after two “freedom fighters”? One of wich was certainly violent and who literaly waged a terrorist campaign against loyalists. The other one is a true martyr, murdered for the cause. Good examples chappy.. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/462 "2012-11-22T13:12:19Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Additionally, I at no point claimed that the Gaza Strip is 100% dense urban areas. So I take it you concede that at least some of the targets, i.e. people launching rockets, are in effect using human shields by launching from densely populated areas when they could be launching from other areas? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/463 "2012-11-22T13:16:31Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Well there is that pesky majority of people that wants them to stay. Democracy, eh? So is your position that if the majority of people who live in a geographic area want independence for that area, then whoever happens to be in charge should “negotiate statehood” with them? And what exactly does it mean to “negotiate statehood” with someone? Do you just keep offering them concessions without expecting or asking for anything in return? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/464 "2012-11-22T13:22:43Z")
If the Palestinian sites where rockets are being launched from are being pulverised into oblivion, what evidence is there going to be of how the rocket was launched? How capable are Palestinian forensic experts at being able to sift through the rubble to find these rocket launchers? I’d find it just as likely that Mossad were setting off remote attacks to further the perverted aims of their paymasters, than that Hamas were still deliberately endangering civilians at this stage of the game, knowing how eager Israel is to bring on Armageddon a little bit early, especially for them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/465 "2012-11-22T13:24:27Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’d find it just as likely that Mossad were setting off remote attacks to further the perverted aims of their paymasters, than that Hamas were still deliberately endangering civilians at this stage of the game, knowing how eager Israel is to bring on Armaggedon a little bit early, especially for them. Probably it was the same Mossad operatives who were behind 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/466 "2012-11-22T13:25:09Z")
… aaaaaand dimmy has gone off the deep end. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/467 "2012-11-22T13:26:21Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You mean named after two “freedom fighters”? > One of wich was certainly violent and who literaly waged a terrorist campaign against loyalists. > The other one is a true martyr, murdered for the cause. > > Good examples chappy.. yeah, because Martin Luther King martyred himself by strapping bombs into a suicide vest and boarding a bus full of civilians before he blew himself up. And , yeah. George Washington ,if he had had modern rockets, would have aimed them straight into the nursery schools classrooms of his enemy.. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/468 "2012-11-22T13:28:20Z")
Deaths, let alone civilian deaths, let alone children being killed, are never a good thing. Given the nature of this conflict I am content to see the outcome being as fewer of those happening than I was expecting. For Israel this was a measured, restrained, proportionate response. A path was found to accept what they accomplished and to avoid going in with ground troops this time which would have caused many more civilian deaths and much more damage. Good for the citizens of Gaza and good for the international perception of the Israeli administration. Wonderful to see that “the Iron Dome” prevented many more civilian and child deaths, and for other regional actors to see that it works. Fantastic to see Morsi step up to the plate as a responsible leader. This was a big test for him and he demonstrated that he could play to the crowds while also getting Gazan Hamas to basically unconditionally capitulate to the same degree or greater degree they would have eventually if Israel had ended up having to go in with ground troops an damaging both sides more, both in deaths, infrastructure, and political positioning for the future. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/469 "2012-11-22T13:30:04Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’d find it just as likely that Mossad were setting off remote attacks to further the perverted aims of their paymasters Warned for trolling. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/470 "2012-11-22T13:31:11Z")
Okay, I should have been more precise and said “rogue Mossad operatives.” Am I forgiven now? What’s that you say? I need evidence that there are rogue Mossad operatives? Do I also have to provide evidence that the NSA don’t do everything by the book? Or that CIA operatives didn’t run lucrative sidelines in narcotics trading? It is not beyond the realms of espionage and counter-insurgency that one player might move the other player’s pawns. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/471 "2012-11-22T13:35:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Warned for trolling. Even though I was in the middle of rephrasing my comments while you were posting my warning? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/472 "2012-11-22T13:38:00Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Even though I was in the middle of rephrasing my comments while you were posting my warning? Yes. I’ll be generous and not give you a second warning for the second post, but you need to stop this stupidity now. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/473 "2012-11-22T13:38:44Z")
\*\*dimmy \*\*-- just as a reminder, [the PLO was founded in 1964](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization), **3 years before the West Bank and Gaza became controlled by Israel**. so it’s extremely disingenuous to claim that the Palestinian Opposition came about as a result of The Occupation. Maybe one needs to look a little bit deeper than “It’s all Israel’s fault!” when trying to understand the situation. … Unless you believe that the founding of Israel, even within the pre-1967 borders, was unjust and you think Hamas is right and Israel should be erased from the face of the Earth. In which case, come and get me! 😛 😃 Also… > [@](#): > > Isnotreal playing infantile word games with the name of a country does not make your arguments stronger. ETA before posting: your little dance around the question of the rocket launches being “inside job” False Flag operations… There ain’t enough rolleyes :rolleyes:^∞ ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/474 "2012-11-22T13:41:44Z")
Okay, I get it. There are no False Flag ops, EVAH and Mossad are as pure at heart as freshly fallen Alpine snow. I’ll leave the debate to the grown-ups, now. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/475 "2012-11-22T13:45:13Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Okay, I get it. There are no False Flag ops, EVAH and Mossad are as pure at heart as freshly fallen Alpine snow. OK, let’s assume, _arguendo_, that it is possible that some percentage of the roughly 1,500 rockets launched on Israel were actually False Flag ops. What percentage do you believe were Flase Flag, and what percentage do you believe were really Hamas? 99%/1%? 50%/50%? Something else? FTR, I’ll state that I believe the percentage is 0%/100% (i.e., 0% False Flag, 100% genuine Hamas (& Islamic Jihad, & al…) terrorism. Your play. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/476 "2012-11-22T13:58:44Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > George Washington ,if he had had modern rockets, would have aimed them straight into the nursery schools classrooms of his enemy.. I’m sure he would have, yes. The American revolutionairies were not a pretty bunch. You had your own “Reign of Terror”. You do realise that on avarage some 40% of the population in the colonies was pro-British? Ever wonder what happenend to them? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/477 "2012-11-22T14:01:01Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > OK, let’s assume, _arguendo_, that it is possible that some percentage of the roughly 1,500 rockets launched on Israel were actually False Flag ops. > What percentage do you believe were Flase Flag, and what percentage do you believe were really Hamas? 99%/1%? 50%/50%? Something else? > > FTR, I’ll state that I believe the percentage is 0%/100% (i.e., 0% False Flag, 100% genuine Hamas (& Islamic Jihad, & al…) terrorism. > Your play. Give me a detailed map with every firing location and date on it and I’d take on your question. If you can’t provide precise details, I’m not even sure I should believe any particular one was ever fired. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/478 "2012-11-22T14:02:59Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Give me a detailed map with every firing location and date on it and I’d take on your question. Why? How will that help you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/479 "2012-11-22T14:06:43Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If you can’t provide precise details, I’m not even sure I should believe any particular one was ever fired. That’ll be that second warning. This silliness is over, so other posters are instructed not to engage **dimmy derko** about his conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/480 "2012-11-22T14:07:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Why? How will that help you? Who knows. Maybe there’s a recognisable pattern, like they always occur prior to an election and in places where a sneaky person could come and go unnoticed, even carrying what looked like a few bits of piping on a porter’s trolley. Oh, right, I see how this place is being moderated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=25)