# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/501 "2012-11-22T20:15:14Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Um… yes? Unless you’re claiming that we’re talking armed fighters, the proper procedure when dealing with suspected traitors is generally to bring them to trial and punish them according to the Law of the Land (if found guilty by the court.) I think traitors should be sent to Guantanamo. You know, the Law of the Land and other related BS that people swallow on a daily basis while looking for job and food. The worst thing is not that you only believe in all of this but you sound quite convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/502 "2012-11-22T20:31:02Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I think traitors should be sent to Guantanamo. You know, the Law of the Land and other related BS that people swallow on a daily basis while looking for job and food. > > The worst thing is not that you only believe in all of this but you sound quite convincing. I’m Israeli, I have nothing to do with Gitmo. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/503 "2012-11-22T21:16:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I guess that means you will not concede that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors and that you cannot identify any prominent “Pro-Palestinian” people or organizations which effectively concede that Israel is morally superior to its Arab neighbors. No. Israel as a democracy should behave better. they are all scum and I wish ill on both sides. If I could click my fingers and send them into an alternate dimension where their stupidity didn’t interfere with the rest of us I would without a second of hesitation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/504 "2012-11-22T21:51:16Z")
All this … analysis … notwithstanding, anyone care to comment on how the outcomes of this episode impact the practical paths going forward. Because y’know, some of us would wish no ill will on either side or their houses and hope for some path to eventually be stumbled through that is in the long term interests of all involved. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/505 "2012-11-22T21:58:23Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > All this … analysis … notwithstanding, anyone care to comment on how the outcomes of this episode impact the practical paths going forward. Because y’know, some of us would wish no ill will on either side or their houses and hope for some path to eventually be stumbled through that is in the long term interests of all involved. Well, I did post the following upthread which no one seems to care to respond to. Perhaps you’d care to comment on it? > [@RedFury](#): > > Which will only happen when Israel finally adheres to the near unanimous – with only three ‘real’ nations continually voting against: The US, Israel & Australia (US veto ‘wins’) – resolution of the yearly UN General Assembly along the unanimous - one backing of [**The International Court Of Justice**](http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca). Which as you’ll see in its advisory opinion on The Wall ruled against three of the four major points of contention in the dispute: The Settlements, East Jerusalem and West Bank borders. ETA: I should add that Palestinians would have to adhere to the resolution and international law to the letter as well. This isn’t about anybody’s “wants” but rather what is politically feasable. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/506 "2012-11-22T22:07:14Z")
Well, Israel secured a promise from the US to block Iranian arms shipments into Gaza through the Sinai-Gaza tunnels. If we do close off the smuggling tunnels, that pretty much means Israel must keep its borders open with Gaza. Israel has apparently lost its chance to pawn Gaza off on Egypt. Morsi’s an interesting character who knows opportunity when he sees it, and grabs it. Guy’s got some cojones. Highly educated, with post-grad studies in the US. Five kids with two of them born in the US carrying US citizenship. His wife is an activist and insists on being called “First Servant” instead of First Lady. Iran is practicing air raid drills today. What are they worried about? Gaza won’t be helping them when Israel attacks? Oops. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/507 "2012-11-22T23:18:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > All this … analysis … notwithstanding, anyone care to comment on how the outcomes of this episode impact the practical paths going forward. Because y’know, some of us would wish no ill will on either side or their houses and hope for some path to eventually be stumbled through that is in the long term interests of all involved. It’s dumb ass election handbags. Meant very little, but achieved exactly what Netanyahu hoped it would. As you were. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/508 "2012-11-23T04:53:04Z")
This part is something that perhaps we can build off of: > [@RedFury](#): > > … This isn’t about anybody’s “wants” but rather what is politically feasable. No good versus evil; not Rebel Alliance against the Death Star; no settling for nothing less than evening up perceived past injustices. What is politically feasible that is in the long best interest moving _forward_ for everyone involved. The result of this episode is that Hamas is now more likely to not launch more rockets. The supply routes will be significantly impeded from the Egypt side and Morsi has likely put his credibility on the line that he will enforce that. He wants that border secured for his own needs as well. In return Hamas has some loosening of borders on the Israeli side to show for it and more prestige but their main card, attacking Israeli civilians, is going to be harder and more costly to play. Fewer are interested in sponsoring them as their proxies and those who are are going to have a more difficult time doing it. What will they do with that greater prestige? They have attention for now but in two weeks the world, including the Arab world, will be back to being more concerned about Assad bombing another hospital and executing another town full of suspected “terrorists.” The only politically feasible path that leads to a brighter future for those Hamas purports to represent is that they acknowledge that Israel is here to stay. Give up the dream of taking it all back and of a long term victory over Israel and instead figure out a different path. Israel for its part has taken up the posture I have long been hoping it would, that of “a snapping turtle.” Stay inside the shell. If a stick is stuck in far enough snap snap and snap hard, hard enough to make the stick poker hurt, and then quickly pull back in the shell. Don’t stick your neck out too far trying to destroy the one poking the stick. Short targeted hard attacks then back in the shell. Now Israel really has to get down to work making the West Bank much more viable as a functional Palestinian entity. Politically (domestically) there is now a window a Bibi coalition can get away with making a unilateral gesture there in good will and not look weak. After Obama’s unqualified support for the Gazan action they surely know that such would be an appreciated token and making the West Bank a successful model of emerging Palestinian economic function may make it a bit more clear to Hamas what the best politically feasible future is. Maybe this time? And this is where I was. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/509 "2012-11-23T07:04:54Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No. Well that gives a lot of insight into the motivations of people and organizations which bill themselves as “pro-Palestinian.” You may find the notion “disgusting,” but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/510 "2012-11-23T14:17:46Z")
Interesting, and distressing, developments in Egypt. What do you make of this? > **[Thousands clash in Cairo over Egyptian president's new powers](https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/thousands-clash-in-cairo-over-egyptian-president-s-new-powers-1.1050604)** > > Supporters and opponents of President Mohammed Morsi clashed Friday in the worst violence since he took office, while he defended a decision to give himself near-absolute power to root out what he called "weevils eating away at the nation of Egypt." It would appear that Egypt’s President has used his political “moment”, created by playing broker in the Gaza crisis, to seize power and oust judicial oversight. May be bad news for hopes of Egyptian democracy. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/511 "2012-11-23T15:24:37Z")
It seems to me that Morsi wants a new constitution completed in two months and in the meantime no one gets to challenge his decisions. I’ll wait and see what he does once the new constitution is in effect. For now, I’m cautiously optimistic. One thing I know is the ME isn’t ready for wimpy leaders yet, and Morsi is not a wimp. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/512 "2012-11-23T16:35:26Z")
Every democracy experiences birth ad growing pains, get back to me in 50 years - ditto Russia/Eastern Europe, Africa, central/south America, etc. It’s a long, long, looooog journey. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/513 "2012-11-23T18:48:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Interesting, and distressing, developments in Egypt. What do you make of this? > > [http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/opponents-of-egypt-s-islamic-president-clash-with-his-backers-over-new-powers-1.1050604](http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/opponents-of-egypt-s-islamic-president-clash-with-his-backers-over-new-powers-1.1050604) > > It would appear that Egypt’s President has used his political “moment”, created by playing broker in the Gaza crisis, to seize power and oust judicial oversight. May be bad news for hopes of Egyptian democracy. Good for him. Let’s hope the U.S gives them as much welfare as we do Israel. If Israel can be a “Jewish democracy” maybe the Egypt can be a “Muslim democracy” followed by Puerto Rico declaring themselves as a “Hispanic democracy” and Haiti announcing they are a “Black democracy”. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/514 "2012-11-23T19:05:43Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Even before the war quite a few loyalists fled because of the treatment of Tories in rebel territory. Land would be confiscated, people were physically attacked or tarred and feathered. All as clear warnings to other loyalists, IOW terrorism. > You give us Josiah Pillips, I give you Thomas Browne, who became a ‘notorious’ Loyalist after they tarred him and burned off his toes, in 1775. > > Part of the peace treaty of 1783 was that land would be returned to Loyalists. > The US never lived up to this, no right of return. > > After the war some 60.000 Loyalists left the US. More would follow because of the continued bad treatment of Tories. Actions occurring before the war were part of the run-up to the war. There is no question that there were barbaric acts committed by both the Loyalists and the Rebels. The region of Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont bounded by the Walloomsac and Connecticut Rivers saw a lot of arson and murder. The Wyoming valley of Pennsylvania, Mohawk Valley of New York, and numerous areas in the Carolinas saw some of the bloodiest fighting, with the both Loyalists and Rebels engaging in similar tactics. Your claim was that there was “reign of terror” in the American colonies after the war. In point of fact, there was a brutal civil war during the war in which both sides resorted to barbarism. You then pointed to Judge Lynch (in the context of post-war pogroms) and I pointed out that he did not continue his behavior after the war had ended. It is true that some folks estimate that up to 60,000 Loyalists left when the war ended. Of course, at that time, the population was roughly 3 1/2 million of whom one third were estimated to have had Loyalist sympathies. Of the 60,000 who may have left, the reasons ranged from actually being forced from their homes to a simple desire to remain good British citizens, but it is clear that the remaining 1.1 million Loyalists were not forced to flee. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/515 "2012-11-23T19:29:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Good for him. Let’s hope the U.S gives them as much welfare as we do Israel. Or perhaps instead of sending money, the US should set up actual military bases like the US does for the UK, Germany, France, and South Korea. Or perhaps the US should sign a treaty with Egypt stating that an attack on Egypt will be treated like an attack on the US, like the US has with Turkey, Belgium, and the UK. > [@](#): > > If Israel can be a “Jewish democracy” maybe the Egypt can be a “Muslim democracy” Sure, and I wonder if a democratic Egypt will be judged by the same standards as Israel. Or if people will still relentlessly single Israel out for wildly disproportionate criticism. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/516 "2012-11-23T20:12:37Z")
BTW, I have heard many sources make similar claims as **BrokenBriton** ’s, even if expressed a bit more articulately - that Bibi launched this operation for domestic political needs. But well before the operation was ever launched it was already clear that his party was [virtually assured](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/israel-elections-2012-netanyahu-victory_n_1957398.html) being able to lead its usual coalition to a solid victory. Sure the way this went strengthens his position but if had gone badly … as a domestic political calculus it seems like it would have been a stupid play, unneeded on the upside and risky on the downside. Again, he now has ample domestic room to be bold and move to the middle on West Bank issues (risking pissing off the settler and Greater Israel blocs a bit). Such then rewards Obama for the strong and early support which then in turn strengthens Obama’s hand in dealing with other ME agenda issues, which would be in Israel’s interest as well. I dream. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/517 "2012-11-23T20:29:29Z")
Bibi? Within a week of calling the election himself, he orders Ahmed Jabari killed. Of course it has absolutely nothing to do with firming up the nationalist right-wing of his current coalition. Right. Oh, and: > [@](#): > > Olmert, who is reportedly considering a political comeback and is widely seen as the only politician with a chance of unseating Netanyahu. Let’s make the “is” a “was”. Fwiw **DSeid** , I’d imagine many here have seen the ‘honest broker’ act before, even if expressed a bit more articulately. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/518 "2012-11-23T20:33:11Z")
Is no one at all interested in the situation in Egypt? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/519 "2012-11-23T20:43:56Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Is no one at all interested in the situation in Egypt? ☹ I am! What’s amazing is the boldness of the demonstrations against Morsi’s power grab. Am I wrong in thinking this is a positive thing? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/520 "2012-11-23T20:43:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Is no one at all interested in the situation in Egypt? ☹ You’re presuming people actually give a shit about Egypt’s Arab citizens? You might as well wonder why we don’t have more threads concerning Turkey’s occupation and settling of Northern Cyprus. Or, of course you might wonder why don’t have more threads criticizing Germany and other European countries which refuse to give citizenship to Muslims who’ve lived there for multiple generations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=27)