# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/521 "2012-11-23T20:49:54Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > I am! What’s amazing is the boldness of the demonstrations against Morsi’s power grab. Am I wrong in thinking this is a positive thing? Depends on whether the power grap proves successful or not. The timing of this thing leads me to believe M. is banking on the incrreased prestige from his role in the Gaza business to insulate him. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/522 "2012-11-23T20:56:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Sure the way this went strengthens his position but if had gone badly No, the way it went hurts his political position. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/523 "2012-11-23T21:08:42Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Bibi? > > Within a week of calling the election himself, he orders Ahmed Jabari killed. > > Of course it has absolutely nothing to do with firming up the nationalist right-wing of his current coalition. Right. Oh, and: > Let’s make the “is” a “was”. If you read the article, already “was” … > [@HuffPo Oct. 11](#): > > Thursday’s poll in Maariv said a party led by Olmert and his former foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, would only win 10 seats, most of them taken from other centrist parties. > > The Haaretz poll found that only 24 percent of Israelis would want Olmert as prime minister, compared with 58 percent favoring Netanyahu. > > “If Netanyahu had any passing concerns yesterday about the possibility of Olmert’s return, the poll shows that he needn’t worry,” commentator Mazal Mualem wrote in Maariv. Which _was_ the point. **Malthus** , speaking just for myself I am very interested but not yet educated enough to have anything to say. The judicial there does give the impression of having been actively trying to support the interests of the military. But is that just cover to completely marginalize the secularists and intellectuals? **Terr** I didn’t see it like that but apparently you are [correct](http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/4713-netanyahus-popularity-rating-plummets-after-gaza). > [@](#): > > A survey conducted by the Ma’ariv newspaper reflected widespread Israeli anger over the ceasefire agreement. The survey indicated that Mr Netanyahu’s popularity rating is on the decline because of his mishandling of the offensive and the humiliating terms which brought it to an end. > > The Israeli Prime Minister had pledged to eliminate Hamas and restore Israel’s deterrent capability through the war; “but none of that was achieved,” Netanyahu’s supporters believe. > > The poll results showed that the new coalition between Likud headed by Netanyahu and the extreme right-wing Yisrael Beiteinu party headed by the Israeli Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, may get just 37 from the 120 seats in the Knesset. This is six seats less when compared with the results of another survey conducted before the offensive. > > The same referendum showed that only 31 per cent of Israelis support the terms of the ceasefire, while 49 per cent are against it. Of course a messy ground operation that accomplished no more would likely have cost him more support. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/524 "2012-11-23T21:12:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Terr** I didn’t see it like that but apparently you are [correct](http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/4713-netanyahus-popularity-rating-plummets-after-gaza). Yes. Politically this was an extremely stupid move. Anyone who says Netanyahu did this to bolster his election chances doesn’t know what he’s talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/525 "2012-11-23T21:36:41Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If Israel can be a “Jewish democracy” maybe the Egypt can be a “Muslim democracy”. > > - Honesty I’m a bit confused by the vehemence you seem to hold regarding Israel being “a Jewish democracy” and confusion regarding the way you say "Muslim democracy as if we would never support such a thing. In fact, there are many democracies with official religions. In fact, just a few years ago, the US helped set up one in Iraq. If we can have Christian democracies and Muslim democracies, what’s wrong with having a Jewish one? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/526 "2012-11-23T22:16:30Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s dumb ass election handbags. > > Meant very little, but achieved exactly what Netanyahu hoped it would. > > As you were. Formal warning issued. I told you about this several times. A thoughtful analysis would have been fine; but you haven’t showed much interest in that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/527 "2012-11-24T02:01:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m a bit confused by the vehemence you seem to hold regarding Israel being “a Jewish democracy” and confusion regarding the way you say "Muslim democracy as if we would never support such a thing. > > In fact, there are many democracies with official religions. In fact, just a few years ago, the US helped set up one in Iraq. > > If we can have Christian democracies and Muslim democracies, what’s wrong with having a Jewish one? Is there such a thing as a Christian democracy anymore? Certainly history was rife with them in the past. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/528 "2012-11-24T05:34:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re presuming people actually give a shit about Egypt’s Arab citizens? > > You might as well wonder why we don’t have more threads concerning Turkey’s occupation and settling of Northern Cyprus. > > Or, of course you might wonder why don’t have more threads criticizing Germany and other European countries which refuse to give citizenship to Muslims who’ve lived there for multiple generations. Is there anyone here stopping you – or anyone else who complains in similar form – from opening said threads? I don’t see an argument as much as a thinly veiled accusation from posts such as yours. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/529 "2012-11-24T06:17:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Is there anyone here stopping you – or anyone else who complains in similar form – from opening said threads? I don’t see an argument as much as a thinly veiled accusation from posts such as yours. What “thinly veiled accusation” am I making? I thought it was quite clear. I find that virtually all westerners and members of the Dope who rage against Israel don’t actually give a shit about the Palestinians, how they’re treated, or their cause, but just love, for one reason or another, to take shots at Israel. For example, anyone who’d spent six hours in Palestine/Israel and any 25-year-old in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip could answer this simple question. “What is the significance of the term ‘freedom colors’ and ‘censorship’ in the current conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews?” Perhaps you can tell us what the answer is? Beyond that, perhaps you can tell us why you think so many more people are upset about Israel’s invasion and occupation of the West Bank in response to being attacked by Jordan but seemingly nobody gives a shit about Turkey’s invasion and continued occupation of Northern Cyprus as well as the ethnic cleansing that followed? I’m assume of course that you’ve started many threads criticizing Turkey’s invasion of Northern Cyprus, continued occupation, building of settlement on, and the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Greeks from. If not, why do you care so much more about what Israel does than what Turkey does and why do you think so many more people on the Dope and in the west feel that way as well? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/530 "2012-11-24T06:19:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m a bit confused by the vehemence you seem to hold regarding Israel being “a Jewish democracy” and confusion regarding the way you say "Muslim democracy as if we would never support such a thing. > > In fact, there are many democracies with official religions. In fact, just a few years ago, the US helped set up one in Iraq. You are joking, right? I mean _using the Iraq invasion and its aftermath as an example of anything_…and to top it off by calling it a ‘democracy’ is the kind of material the late great George Carlin would have had a field day with. But I knew\* George Carlin, and you, Sir, are no George Carlin. \*For nitpickers: watched just about all of filmed performances since the late 60’s. > [@](#): > > If we can have Christian democracies and Muslim democracies, what’s wrong with having a Jewish one? What **Magiver** said. Though I honestly don’t care what people believe in, I’d also say that having ancient (and mostly ignorant) books about Sky Pixies determine how you run your nation is a whacked way to infuse political and judicial progress. Then again, not _my_ problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/531 "2012-11-24T06:21:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Is there such a thing as a Christian democracy anymore? Certainly history was rife with them in the past. Yes, lots of countries have various Christian denominations as an official religion. To give one obvious example, the Republic of Ireland. There are very, very few secular democracies, such as France or the US, in the world. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/532 "2012-11-24T06:23:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What “thinly veiled accusation” am I making? > > I thought it was quite clear. > > I find that virtually all westerners and members of the Dope who rage against Israel don’t actually give a shit about the Palestinians, how they’re treated, or their cause, but just love, for one reason or another, to take shots at Israel. > > For example, anyone who’d spent six hours in Palestine/Israel and any 25-year-old in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip could answer this simple question. > > “What is the significance of the term ‘freedom colors’ and ‘censorship’ in the current conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews?” > > Perhaps you can tell us what the answer is? > > Beyond that, perhaps you can tell us why you think so many more people are upset about Israel’s invasion and occupation of the West Bank in response to being attacked by Jordan but seemingly nobody gives a shit about Turkey’s invasion and continued occupation of Northern Cyprus as well as the ethnic cleansing that followed? > > I’m assume of course that you’ve started many threads criticizing Turkey’s invasion of Northern Cyprus, continued occupation, building of settlement on, and the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Greeks from. > > If not, why do you care so much more about what Israel does than what Turkey does and why do you think so many more people on the Dope and in the west feel that way as well? Dude, you’ve been confusing ‘debate’ with ‘prosecution’ ever since you landed here. I’ll just leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/533 "2012-11-24T06:28:55Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You are joking, right? I mean _using the Iraq invasion and its aftermath as an example of anything_…and to top it off by calling it a ‘democracy’ is the kind of material the late great George Carlin would have had a field day with. But I knew\* George Carlin, and you, Sir, are no George Carlin. Er… yes, the government of Iraq is democratically elected and is also officially a Muslim democracy with Islam as the official state religion. I remember lots of ignorant morons whizzing themselves when the Iraqi Constitution was drawn up and officially declared that. I pointed out that there are a number of Christian democracies and at least one Shinto democracy and one Jewish democracy. > [@](#): > > What Magiver said. Though I honestly don’t care what people believe in, I’d also say that having ancient (and mostly ignorant) books about Sky Pixies determine how you run your nation is a whacked way to infuse political and judicial progress. Then again, not _my_ problem. That’s a ridiculous statement for a European to make. There are lots of Christian democracies in Europe with official state religions. For example, as already mentioned, the Republic of Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/534 "2012-11-24T06:36:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Dude, you’ve been confusing ‘debate’ with ‘prosecution’ ever since you landed here. For someone who just whined about me making a “thinly veiled accusation” that’s a rather silly claim. Anyway, if you actually give a shit about the Palestinians and their cause as opposed to just hating Israel it should be easy for you to answer a simple question almost any Palestinian can answer. So, “What is the significance of the term ‘freedom colors’ and ‘censorship’ in the current conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews?” If you care about them and are really familiar with the situation as opposed to enjoying making drive-by posts then it should be very easy for you to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/535 "2012-11-24T07:03:54Z")
While I’m no fan or defender of Hamas, I do think quite a few people are being unfair when arguing that Hamas is deliberately surrounding themselves with “human shields” because they want Israelis to kill large numbers of Palestinian civilians. What they’re doing is quite common among partisans/guerillas/rebels(fill-in-the-blank). For that matter, during the fighting in Israel’s War of Independence, the gun batteries in Jerusalem and other places were often put among civilians. It’s not about ensuring massive numbers of your civilians are killed, so much as making it difficult for the rebels/insurgents etc. to be targeted. People have been complaining why don’t Hamas set up their batteries in empty areas where they would be away from civilians. True, but then they’d be much easier to be targeted and taken out. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/536 "2012-11-24T07:14:56Z")
IDF dropped leaflets and I believe also sent out text messages warning Gazans which areas to evacuate or avoid. Hamas told people to ignore the Israeli messages and stay where they were. Sounds like trying to maximize your death count. Bonus points for bloody kids carried through streets in front of camera crews. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/537 "2012-11-24T07:43:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > While I’m no fan or defender of Hamas, I do think quite a few people are being unfair when arguing that Hamas is deliberately surrounding themselves with “human shields” because they want Israelis to kill large numbers of Palestinian civilians. > > What they’re doing is quite common among partisans/guerillas/rebels(fill-in-the-blank). For that matter, during the fighting in Israel’s War of Independence, the gun batteries in Jerusalem and other places were often put among civilians. 1. Give a cite for “gun batteries in Jerusalem and other places were often put among civilians” - deliberately. That is, show that there was another alternative, but it was not taken and the gun battery was placed among civilians. 2. Do you _really_ think that during Israel’s War of Independence placing Jewish batteries among Jewish civilians would have caused even an iota of hesitation in Arab combatants’ response to the fire? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/538 "2012-11-24T07:55:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… yes, _the government of Iraq is democratically elected_ and is also officially a Muslim democracy with Islam as the official state religion. I admit it . That _is_ funny when speaking of a _failed state_. > [@](#): > > I remember lots of ignorant morons whizzing themselves when the Iraqi Constitution was drawn up and officially declared that. As I remember lots of _more_ ignorant morons creaming themselves over the lies that led to the destruction of Iraq. > [@](#): > > That’s a ridiculous statement for a European to make. There are lots of Christian democracies in Europe with official state religions. And I find it even more ridiculous for anyone not to be aware of overwhelming rise of secularism in most European countries. For the most part, god is on artificial life support in Western Europe. Including such bastions of godliness as Italy and Spain. You are quite welcome to do the research as _in this thread I won’t be doing for you_. > [@](#): > > For example, as already mentioned, the Republic of Ireland. So? What’s the real-world influence there? [**Religiosity Plummets In Ireland** And Declines Worldwide; Atheism On The Rise](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html) At any rate rate can we at least stop with the off-topic prosecution and stick to the topic? As I said, open as many threads as TPTB permit on all the topics that annoy that are not covered in this one…and allow everyone else to pick their own outrages. Niters. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/539 "2012-11-24T08:28:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s a ridiculous statement for a European to make. There are lots of Christian democracies in Europe with official state religions. > > For example, as already mentioned, the Republic of Ireland. I’m sorry but the Republic of Ireland is not a Christian Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. Religious freedom is constitutionally provided for in Ireland and Islam is present in the country and is allowed to be practice openly. This is decidedly different than Saudi Arabia where Islam is an official religion and Christianity is banned as an open practice. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/540 "2012-11-24T08:36:02Z")
I really ought to remove the Ipad from my nightstand. Supposedly I keep it there to read all of my Kindle books…but I almost always succumb to its browsing capablities. I any event. Just a though. Religion has no place in politics Decisions over peoples lives should never be made by a sytem who believes in sky pixies and their 'laws." Christians in general and most other religions have, for the most part, only ever held back progress and engendered segregation & hatred within neighbors.They use fear of the unkown to control people based on books that are full of unfounded gossip passed down from generation to generation where the most powerful pick, buffet style, the parts that seemed more relevant at the time to the purpose of their own agendas. :::hate typing on well, everything but a keyboard:::: Get off my lawn! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=28)