# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/541 "2012-11-24T10:59:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Interesting, and distressing, developments in Egypt. What do you make of this? I hope that Egypt rises to Israel’s level of moral superiority. But I’m not optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/542 "2012-11-24T11:10:50Z")
**RedFury** , You probably don’t remember me, as I haven’t posted here for some years now. So, for the record: I’m Israeli, a Jew by birth and an atheist by (dis)belief. And while most of what you write WRT Israel rubs me the wrong way, this post resonated with me: > [@RedFury](#): > > Religion has no place in politics > > Decisions over peoples lives should never be made by a sytem who believes in sky pixies and their 'laws." > > Christians in general and most other religions have, for the most part, only ever held back progress and engendered segregation & hatred within neighbors.They use fear of the unkown to control people based on books that are full of unfounded gossip passed down from generation to generation where the most powerful pick, buffet style, the parts that seemed more relevant at the time to the purpose of their own agendas. And yet, while I tend to agree with you on this, I would still fight to keep Israel a Jewish state (preferably a secular Jewish state – and that’s not an oxymoron), for two main reasons: 1. The alternative, at least for the foreseeable future, is an Arab, Muslim regime. And judging from similar states around here, I sure do prefer the current state of matters. 2. History taught us again and again that while Jews may see themselves as \ people first and Jews second, as atheists, or even as non-Jews at all, the surrounding people sometimes have a different view on the matter. So a (relatively) safe place for Jews to go to in times of troubles is probably not such a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/543 "2012-11-24T11:16:38Z")
If you put your religious beliefs before your humanity, or worse still, think your religious beliefs are what makes you human, I see no reason why I should give your thoughts on any other matter the slightest consideration, except to phrase my telling you how wrong you are. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/544 "2012-11-24T12:32:25Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Or perhaps instead of sending money, the US should set up actual military bases like the US does for the UK, Germany,\*\* France\*\*, and South Korea. . Nitpick unrelated to the thread topic : there are no US bases in France. Those that existed were closed when De Gaulle decided that France would leave NATO’s unified command. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/545 "2012-11-24T12:56:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I pointed out that there are a number of Christian democracies and at least one Shinto democracy and one Jewish democracy. Shinto is no longer Japan’s state religion, hasn’t been since the end of WWII. The Imperial Household Agency caught living hell over that some years ago when they, and specifically the Emperor, tried to act like it still was. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/546 "2012-11-24T15:14:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is decidedly different than Saudi Arabia where Islam is an official religion and Christianity is banned as an open practice. We’re not talking about Saudi Arabia, which isn’t a democracy. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry but the Republic of Ireland is not a Christian Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. Religious freedom is constitutionally provided for in Ireland and Islam is present in the country and is allowed to be practice openly. By the standard you just set, it’s wrong to call Israel a Jewish democracy since Islam and Christianity are present in the country(in vastly larger number than Protestants are in Eire) and are allowed to practice openly. I merely pointed out that there are many countries, including many European countries, which have official religions. My point was if it’s okay to have a Jewish democracy and a number of Christian democracies, what’s wrong with a Muslim democracy? Obviously that doesn’t mean Iran or Saudi Arabia. > [@](#): > > **RedFury** > As I remember lots of more ignorant morons creaming themselves over the lies that led to the destruction of Iraq. I’m not sure your point. Are you under the impression that I supported the invasion. I didn’t and I can’t imagine why you think I would. > [@](#): > > **RedFury** > And I find it even more ridiculous for anyone not to be aware of overwhelming rise of secularism in most European countries. For the most part, god is on artificial life support in Western Europe. Including such bastions of godliness as Italy and Spain. Had I been claiming that Europe was going through a religious revival you might have a point, but I wasn’t so you don’t. I merely pointed out that there are a number of countries in Europe with official state religions so I see nothing wrong with the Government of Iraq or Egypt declaring themselves Muslim democracies and classifying Islam as their state religion. Getting upset about Iraq declaring itself a Muslim democracy but not at the governments of various European countries who have official state religions is bluntly put, bigotry plain and simple. Perhaps you wish most democracies were completely secular and practices separation of Church and State, but France, the US, and Turkey are the exception not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/547 "2012-11-24T15:16:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Shinto is no longer Japan’s state religion, hasn’t been since the end of WWII. The Imperial Household Agency caught living hell over that some years ago when they, and specifically the Emperor, tried to act like it still was. Thanks for the correction. I thought the Emperor was still required to perform a number of Shinto functions and therefore it still was. Apparently he merely wishes it still was. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/548 "2012-11-24T18:05:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > We’re not talking about Saudi Arabia, which isn’t a democracy. > > By the standard you just set, it’s wrong to call Israel a Jewish democracy since Islam and Christianity are present in the country(in vastly larger number than Protestants are in Eire) and are allowed to practice openly. > > I merely pointed out that there are many countries, including many European countries, which have official religions. > > My point was if it’s okay to have a Jewish democracy and a number of Christian democracies, what’s wrong with a Muslim democracy? > > Obviously that doesn’t mean Iran or Saudi Arabia. > > I’m not sure your point. Are you under the impression that I supported the invasion. I didn’t and I can’t imagine why you think I would. > > Had I been claiming that Europe was going through a religious revival you might have a point, but I wasn’t so you don’t. > > I merely pointed out that there are a number of countries in Europe with official state religions so I see nothing wrong with the Government of Iraq or Egypt declaring themselves Muslim democracies and classifying Islam as their state religion. > > Getting upset about Iraq declaring itself a Muslim democracy but not at the governments of various European countries who have official state religions is bluntly put, bigotry plain and simple. > > Perhaps you wish most democracies were completely secular and practices separation of Church and State, but France, the US, and Turkey are the exception not the rule. Well there’s nothing wrong with a Muslim democracy but I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. Do you mean a country with an official religion (of Islam)? And I don’t agree with your exceptions to the rule. you gave Ireland as an example of a Christian Democracy and it’s simply untrue. I would ask for a cite of any country that has a government based on Christianity or am I mistaken in your statement and you’re saying there are predominately Christian nations which are also Democratic. Maybe I’m confused on what you’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/549 "2012-11-24T18:06:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would ask for a cite of any country that has a government based on Christianity The Vatican. But if that is the definition of “Christian Democracy” - democracy with a “government based on Christianity”, then Israel is not a “Judaic Democracy”. Its government is not “based on Judaism”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/550 "2012-11-24T18:43:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well there’s nothing wrong with a Muslim democracy but I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. Do you mean a country with an official religion (of Islam)? Yes. > [@](#): > > And I don’t agree with your exceptions to the rule. you gave Ireland as an example of a Christian Democracy and it’s simply untrue Except for the fact that the 1937 Constitution makes Roman Catholicism the official religion of the Republic. If you want to be technical I should have referred to it as “a Catholic democracy”. The Roman Catholic Church still has immense influence, controlling, until recently, most of the hospitals in the Republic for example, ensuring that abortion in all instances is banned, drastically limiting contraception, and until about twent years ago, banning divorce. > [@](#): > > I would ask for a cite of any country that has a government based on Christianity or am I mistaken in your statement and you’re saying there are predominately Christian nations which are also Democratic. By your standards then Israel isn’t a Jewish democracy because it’s not based on Judaism. Anyway as I said there are a number of countries where there is intermingling of religion and government and where specific Christian denominations have official recognition. What’s wrong with Muslim democracies and Jewish democracies if Christian democracies are kosher? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/551 "2012-11-24T19:04:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes. OK, same page. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except for the fact that the 1937 Constitution makes Roman Catholicism the official religion of the Republic. > > If you want to be technical I should have referred to it as “a Catholic democracy”. ah, you’re looking at old information. That’s been abandoned in the latter half of that century. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Roman Catholic Church still has immense influence, controlling, until recently, most of the hospitals in the Republic for example, ensuring that abortion in all instances is banned, drastically limiting contraception, and until about twent years ago, banning divorce. definitely a voting force. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > By your standards then Israel isn’t a Jewish democracy because it’s not based on Judaism. I’d say it’s the ultimate religious state because it’s based on the survival of a people and it’s based on a demographic of the religion to the voting exclusion of other religions. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyway as I said there are a number of countries where there is intermingling of religion and government and where specific Christian denominations have official recognition. > > What’s wrong with Muslim democracies and Jewish democracies if Christian democracies are kosher? Countries that were once based on Christianity have moved beyond the religion. Islamic countries, with the tenuous example of Turkey, have not. Islam specifically incorporates government into it’s doctrine where Christianity had no such directive. Not that it stopped governments from using the power of the religion to dominate by decree it really wasn’t codified to be so and was eventually brought down from within because of that. I think it was an easier transition to go from Christianity to secularism than for Islam to transition as such and that’s why we see the same social and political structures in Muslim countries to this day despite the changes in the world around them. I have no way of separating out the social (tribal) component that seems to be intertwined among the Islamic states because it appears to me that it spans the various versions of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/552 "2012-11-24T19:41:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > ah, you’re looking at old information. That’s been abandoned in the latter half of that century. No, that’s not true. Ireland certainly does not practice separation of Church and State. Moreover, there are a number of western countries which have official state religions and few, such as the US, Turkey, and France which actually practice separation of Church and State. The Scandinavian countries and the UK are other obvious examples. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/553 "2012-11-24T19:42:18Z")
**Magiver** : What’s your take on the preamble to the constitution of Ireland? AFAIK, that has not been amended. Also, since when are Israeli citizens who are not Jewish prohibited from voting? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/554 "2012-11-24T20:07:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Countries that were once based on Christianity have moved beyond the religion. Islamic countries, with the tenuous example of Turkey, have not. Islam specifically incorporates government into it’s doctrine where Christianity had no such directive. What are you talking about? There are around 60 Islamic countries in the world and about the only ones that could be considered theocracies are Saudia Arabia, Iran, and Sudan. Or to put it another way, three countries, though I may have forgotten one or two. Obviously there are many others where there is some official recognition of Islam but you seem to believe most are theocracies whereas only tiny number are. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/555 "2012-11-24T20:13:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, that’s not true. Ireland certainly does not practice separation of Church and State. Whatever your take on it, the fact is that your refernce to the 1937 Constitution is out of date. The position of the RCC as the country’s official religion was removed by the Fifth Amendment in 1972. The Trinity and Christ are still mentioned in the preamble, but the specific reference to the RCC is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/556 "2012-11-24T21:42:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Whatever your take on it, the fact is that your refernce to the 1937 Constitution is out of date. The position of the RCC as the country’s official religion was removed by the Fifth Amendment in 1972. The Trinity and Christ are still mentioned in the preamble, but the specific reference to the RCC is gone. That is true but Eire certainly does not practice separation of Church and State, continued to give the Catholic Church all sorts of benefits. Moreover, as mentioned, it’s hardly the only country where the governments give some sort of recognition to various religious groups. Many western countries do have official religions. The US, Turkey, and France are the exception not the rule. Canada, the UK, and Sweden are far more common. None of them of course are theocracies, nor is Israel so there’s no reason to get upset about the government of Iraq giving official recognition to Islam. Would I prefer Canada, Sweden and the rest be more like the US? Sure, but that doesn’t mean we should punish Muslim countries who want “Muslim democracies”. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/557 "2012-11-24T21:49:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Or, of course you might wonder why don’t have more threads criticizing Germany and other European countries which refuse to give citizenship to Muslims who’ve lived there for multiple generations. Giving citizenship to more than [1 million Muslims since 1988](http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/akademie/berlin/04705.pdf) might explain why there is no thread criticizing Germany for refusing citizenship to Muslims. [Not caring about the religion](http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Standardartikel/EN/Themen/Migration/Staatsang/faq.html) of an applicant could be another reason. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/558 "2012-11-24T22:26:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Many western countries do have official religions. > > The US, Turkey, and France are the exception not the rule. > > Canada, the UK, and Sweden are far more common. If the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion) is’nt totally wrong there are 12 countries with a “christian”-state religion and 26 with a muslim-state religion. But I think the big difference is how the state religion is handled. Take [this picture](http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/?ref=auto) and start looking for trouble with the authorities in any of the “christian” countries. Then do the same with one of the infamous Muhammad cartoons in the muslim countries. I believe the reactions will be quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/559 "2012-11-24T22:57:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **Magiver** : What’s your take on the preamble to the constitution of Ireland? AFAIK, that has not been amended. > > Also, since when are Israeli citizens who are not Jewish prohibited from voting? I thought I’d cited it in my earlier post but only made mention of the timeline. [Their 5th amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland). As far as Israel is concerned it was set up as a Jewish state and it will certainly be maintained as a Jewish state. Whether it’s through extension of Jewish settlements to displace non-Jewish settlements or outright revision of their constitution there will never be a majority voting block that is not Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/560 "2012-11-24T23:38:56Z")
I didn’t ask about the Catholic church no longer being officially the state religion. I specifically asked about the Preamble. You know, that thing that still specifically states that the Holy Trinity is the source of all authority and specifically mentions folks’ obligations to Jesus Christ. And I asked since when non-Jewish citizens in Israel are not permitted the vote. AFAIK, and your response doesn’t change my knowledge on the issue, such citizens are, in fact, permitted to vote and also to serve in the Knesset. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=29)