# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/561 "2012-11-24T23:56:06Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Giving citizenship to more than [1 million Muslims since 1988](http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/akademie/berlin/04705.pdf) might explain why there is no thread criticizing Germany for refusing citizenship to Muslims. [Not caring about the religion](http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Standardartikel/EN/Themen/Migration/Staatsang/faq.html) of an applicant could be another reason. You’re ignoring the fact that there are quite literally millions of ethnic Turks, Moroccans, and others who’ve legally lived there for two or three generations without being granted citizenship. This is of course, quite disgusting to those of us who don’t believe that people born in our country, much less living there for multiple generations should be denied citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/562 "2012-11-25T00:13:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I didn’t ask about the Catholic church no longer being officially the state religion. I specifically asked about the Preamble. You know, that thing that still specifically states that the Holy Trinity is the source of all authority and specifically mentions folks’ obligations to Jesus Christ. Sorry to pee on your cornflakes but the 5th amendment was pretty specific and nullifies allegiance to the Catholic Church. This is your answer. The Preamble has as much force as the words on US Currency (In God We Trust). > [@Monty](#): > > And I asked since when non-Jewish citizens in Israel are not permitted the vote. AFAIK, and your response doesn’t change my knowledge on the issue, such citizens are, in fact, permitted to vote and also to serve in the Knesset. What do you call a permanent minority vote? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/563 "2012-11-25T00:54:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What do you call a permanent minority vote? Republicans? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/564 "2012-11-25T01:22:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What do you call a permanent minority vote? You’re talking about Arabs in Israel? I don’t know if there is a term for that. What do you call a permanent minority vote of Jews in France? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/565 "2012-11-25T02:06:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What do you call a permanent minority vote? You mean like blacks in the US or Asians in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/566 "2012-11-25T02:06:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re talking about Arabs in Israel? > > I don’t know if there is a term for that. What do you call a permanent minority vote of Jews in France? France isn’t a Christian state trying to maintain a permanent voting block. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/567 "2012-11-25T02:08:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You mean like blacks in the US or Asians in the UK? You foresee anytime in the life of the universe that a Palestinian is voted into the highest office in Israel? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/568 "2012-11-25T02:37:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You foresee anytime in the life of the universe that a Palestinian is voted into the highest office in Israel? Not before a black man is elected president of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/569 "2012-11-25T02:47:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > France isn’t a Christian state trying to maintain a permanent voting block. 1. Define “Christian state”. 2. You’re moving the goalposts. You wanted a permanent minority vote. I gave you an example of one. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/570 "2012-11-25T03:00:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1. Define “Christian state”. > > 2. You’re moving the goalposts. You wanted a permanent minority vote. I gave you an example of one. no, you didn’t give a comparable example. You’re just trying to argue a point for the purpose of arguing and have ignored why I said what I said. Israel will never allow a majority vote other than a Jewish vote. It’s not going to happen because Israel is a Jewish state. It’s sole purpose is to exist as a Jewish state. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/571 "2012-11-25T03:07:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You foresee anytime in the life of the universe that a Palestinian is voted into the highest office in Israel? You keep moving the goal posts and it’s not helping your cause. In post #548, you insisted that a country couldn’t be considered “a Christian democracy” unless it was “based on Christianity”. When it was pointed out that by such standard, Israel wasn’t a “Jewish democracy” you came up with some new definition and tried to pretend you hadn’t changed your definition. You then went on to insist that Israel was a Jewish democracy because Arabs were a permanent minority. I pointed out how this was true of blacks in America and Asians in the UK and again, you are foolishly trying to pretend you’re not contradicting yourself. In fact it should be pointed out that the percentage of Israelis who are Arab vastly outweighs the number of American citizens who are African-Americans and the UK citizens who are of Asian descent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/572 "2012-11-25T03:19:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You then went on to insist that Israel was a Jewish democracy because Arabs were a permanent minority. I pointed out how this was true of blacks in America and Asians in the UK and again, you are foolishly trying to pretend you’re not contradicting yourself. Israel is a democracy as far as it is convenient for the Jewish vote. You can agree with me or disagree with me. Don’t really care to argue it. If you think there will ever be a majority vote that is not Jewish then there isn’t much point arguing an opinion. Your comparison with minority votes in the US has nothing to do with my point. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/573 "2012-11-25T03:23:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > no, you didn’t give a comparable example. You’re just trying to argue a point for the purpose of arguing and have ignored why I said what I said. Israel will never allow a majority vote other than a Jewish vote. It’s not going to happen because Israel is a Jewish state. It’s sole purpose is to exist as a Jewish state. This comment shows profound ignorance of Israel’s demographics. Arab Israelis will become a majority of the vote long, long before African-Americans or Asian-Britons ever do. Beyond that, in post #548, you insisted that’s state could only be considered a Christian democracy if it was “based on Christianity”. You’re now insisting that Israel is a Jewish democracy even though it’s not based on Judaism. Why do you hold Jews to higher standards? Do you think they’re naturally smarter and should be held to higher standards than Christians who are dumb? Or did you misspeak in post #548 and do you withdraw your claim that a state can only be considered Christian if it’s based on Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/574 "2012-11-25T03:27:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your comparison with minority votes in the US has nothing to do with my point. Actually it has everything to do with your point. You rather foolishly claimed Israel was a Jewish democracy because Arabs were a minority. Why isn’t that also true of other states with minorities? What is it about the Jews that makes you hold them to different standards? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/575 "2012-11-25T03:29:46Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > **RedFury** , > You probably don’t remember me, as I haven’t posted here for some years now. So, for the record: I’m Israeli, a Jew by birth and an atheist by (dis)belief. And while most of what you write WRT Israel rubs me the wrong way, this post resonated with me First off, thanks for the input though I am afraid you are right: I don’t specifically remember you by nick. Blame The German, so its not a big deal as I might remember something like 15/20% of posters I interact here by name…and that is likely a stretch. > [@](#): > > And yet, while I tend to agree with you on this, I would still fight to keep Israel a Jewish state (preferably a secular Jewish state – and that’s not an oxymoron), for two main reasons: > > 1. The alternative, at least for the foreseeable future, is an Arab, Muslim regime. And judging from similar states around here, I sure do prefer the current state of matters. > 2. History taught us again and again that while Jews may see themselves as \ people first and Jews second, as atheists, or even as non-Jews at all, the surrounding people sometimes have a different view on the matter. So a (relatively) safe place for Jews to go to in times of troubles is probably not such a bad idea. While I agree with you it’s not an oxymoron – if fact I _really_ like the fact that being an atheist has no bearing on your status as an Israeli – and also agree, as I’ve said all along, that Israel has every right to exist by any reasonable standard, I disagree that Israel is not safe. The reasons why become pretty clear when you look at the ‘balance’ of forces on both sides of the conflict – there is none. So I simply don’t buy into the “existential problem” of Israel. The facts on the ground simply don’t concur with said narrative. That said, I wish you and your country all the best. And again, appreciate your input. * * * Here’s a literal [\*[url=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8g8tUICEAAEODZ.png:large]road map](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8g8tUICEAAEODZ.png:large)\* of how things stand now: Road System. Have at it justifying it. And mock and insult away while you are at it. I wouldn’t have opened this thread if I wasn’t pretty thick skinned – though mosquitoes don’t seem to notice. If at all possible, _dispute the map_ – not the source. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/576 "2012-11-25T03:34:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This comment shows profound ignorance of Israel’s demographics. > > Arab Israelis will become a majority of the vote long, long before African-Americans or Asian-Britons ever do. Never going to be allowed to happen in Israel. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why do you hold Jews to higher standards? I thought I was holding them to a lower standard. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/577 "2012-11-25T03:58:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This comment shows profound ignorance of Israel’s demographics. Do you have to insult every post you disagree with? Fact is you’ve been proven wrong many many times without making it personal. > [@](#): > > Arab Israelis will become a majority of the vote long, long before African-Americans or Asian-Britons ever do. Again, ridiculous if you think that under current circumstances/Israeli Policy. By the bye, Hispanics are actually growing at a much higher rate than Blacks and I _do_ think little by little they are being ‘allowed’ to make huge inroads in US politics – no matter which side of the aisle they stand on. As proof I give you [**Ted Cruz**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Cruz) and [**20 Latino political rising stars of 2012**](http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05election/2012/08/25/20-latino-political-rising-stars-of-2012-with-photo-gallery/). Are you capable of giving me an near-equal list of rising Arab politicians inside Israel? Ain’t happening now nor will it happen anytime soon. Obviously you can dream – but not ‘make your own reality’ ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/578 "2012-11-25T03:59:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Never going to be allowed to happen. What do you think the Jewe will do to prevent this from happening? Forced sterilization of Arab Israelis? Massive, wide scale ethnic cleansing? Something else? Please tell us what you think the Jews will do? Beyond that, you have yet to explain your backtracking on your claim that a state can only be considered Christian if it’s based on Christianity? Please explain why you’re backtracking from your statement in post #548? > [@](#): > > I thought I was holding them to a lower standard. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/579 "2012-11-25T04:03:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What do you think the Jewe will do to prevent this from happening?[ change their constitution or build Jewish settlements that displace Arab settlements. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/580 "2012-11-25T04:05:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sorry to pee on your cornflakes but the 5th amendment was pretty specific and nullifies allegiance to the Catholic Church. This is your answer. The Preamble has as much force as the words on US Currency (In God We Trust). That’s utter bullshit. The words on the US currency are not part of the Constitution. The Irish Constitution specifically cites the Holy Trinity and obligations to Jesus Christ. There is no way to hand-wave that away as “ceremonial deism.” In Ireland’s case, that’s specifically stating that a particular religion, Christianity, is the basis for the state. > [@](#): > > What do you call a permanent minority vote? I call it a minority. I asked, and you have yet to answer, since when have non-Jewish citizens of the state of Israel been prohibited voting on the basis that they are not Jewish? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=30)