# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/581 "2012-11-25T04:07:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > ? > > Beyond that, you have yet to explain your backtracking on your claim that a state can only be considered Christian if it’s based on Christianity? if it’s not based on Christianity than how is it a Christian democracy? help me out here. what point are you trying to make in respect to the concept of a Christian democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/582 "2012-11-25T04:08:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s utter bullshit. The words on the US currency are not part of the Constitution. The Irish Constitution specifically cites the Holy Trinity and obligations to Jesus Christ. There is no way to hand-wave that away as “ceremonial deism.” In Ireland’s case, that’s specifically stating that a particular religion, Christianity, is the basis for the state. OK, we’ll just pretend the 5th amendment never happened. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/583 "2012-11-25T04:19:26Z")
The 5th amendment removed the designation of the Roman Catholic Church as the official religion of the State. It didn’t do a damn thing about the words in the Preamble specifically stating that the Holy Trinity is the source of the state’s authority and that all have obligations to Jesus Christ. You can pretend it did, but the fact remains that it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/584 "2012-11-25T04:26:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > no, you didn’t give a comparable example. You’re just trying to argue a point for the purpose of arguing and have ignored why I said what I said. Israel will never allow a majority vote other than a Jewish vote. It’s not going to happen because Israel is a Jewish state. It’s sole purpose is to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not the question of “allowing”. If Israel ever has a majority non-Jewish voters (hell, even if it is a strong 40%+ minority, since enough Jews are stupid enough) it will stop being Israel. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/585 "2012-11-25T04:31:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re talking about Arabs in Israel? > > I don’t know if there is a term for that. What do you call a permanent minority vote of Jews in France? Perhaps this will make matters clearer – but I doubt it. [**Israeli courts must end anti-Arab discrimination**](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-courts-must-end-anti-arab-discrimination-1.376666) > [@](#): > > \*\*Israeli courts discriminate against Israeli Arabs. If there had been any doubt left about this, a comprehensive, first-of-its-kind study commissioned by Israel’s Courts Administration and the Israel Bar Association just determined it decisively. > > According to the study, whose main findings were reported by Tomer Zarchin in yesterday’s Haaretz, Arabs are given jail sentences more often than Jews convicted of the same offenses, and Arabs receive longer sentences than Jews who are jailed. The study’s authors conclude that their most conspicuous finding is the tendency of Israeli courts to treat Arab defendants more harshly: When Arabs wind up in court, they are more likely to be convicted; when convicted, they are likely to receive a stiffer sentence than a Jew normally would. It’s hard to imagine a more disturbing fact. > > This is no longer just a matter of discrimination on the basis of national identity by small communities’ admissions committees or by bouncers at nightclubs. This isn’t just a matter of budgetary discrimination. This worrisome paroxysm has already reached its pinnacle: the court system itself, which is supposed to serve as society’s beacon of law and justice. > > \ > > Israel’s judges dwell among their people, but they must not allow themselves to become infected by the racist mood that is spreading through Israeli society. On the contrary, the court system must battle against this morally reprehensible attitude. > > Arab citizens must have equal rights in every regard - but first and foremost when dealing with the law enforcement system. They must know they will never face discriminatory sentencing because of their national identity. This essential condition, however, is not currently being met. > > \ > > …Because otherwise, those who accuse Israel of maintaining an apartheid regime will be justified with regard to Israel’s own Arab citizens.\*\* Something to think about. Say what, my turn to play Kreskin. I bet you’ll attack the source not the content. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/586 "2012-11-25T04:47:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What are you talking about? > > There are around 60 Islamic countries in the world and about the only ones that could be considered theocracies are Saudia Arabia, Iran, and Sudan. > > Or to put it another way, three countries, though I may have forgotten one or two. Obviously there are many others where there is some official recognition of Islam but you seem to believe most are theocracies whereas only tiny number are. Mayhaps this article and the sources contained within might be of help in fighting the ignorance contained in your post. Then again, I doubt it. Rather blind to make statements such as that one while being willfully ignorant of the on-going current situation in a wide majority in predominantly Muslim nations. [**Most Muslims Want Democracy, Personal Freedoms, and Islam in Political Life**](http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/07/10/chapter-3-role-of-islam-in-politics/) > [@](#): > > **…_Majorities in most countries also say Islam currently plays a large role in their nation’s political life – and they mostly view this in a positive light_. Tunisians are particularly likely to see Islam as a major, and constructive, influence in their country’s government. The sentiment that religion is influential in politics has increased substantially in Egypt over the past year. _Jordan is the only country in which a majority (63%) says Islam plays a small role in their politics, with most saying this lack of Islamic influence is a bad thing for their country_…** – many more stats, graphs and sources @link. Niters. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/587 "2012-11-25T04:48:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > if it’s not based on Christianity than how is it a Christian democracy? help me out here. what point are you trying to make in respect to the concept of a Christian democracy? This comment is utterly moronic. You’ve repeatedly insisted that Israel is a “Jewish democracy” even though it’s not based on Judaism. Why do you hold the Jews to different standards than you hold Christians? Do you think they’re smarter or is it something else? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/588 "2012-11-25T04:54:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > change their constitution or build Jewish settlements that displace Arab settlements. This comment makes utterly no sense. First of all Israel doesn’t have a constitution so how can they “change their constitution”? Second, what are you talking about building Jewish settlements and displacing Arab settlements? Are you under the impression that the Arab Israelis live on the West Bank or the Gaza Strip? The Jewish settlements displacing Arabs have occurred in East Jerusalem and the occupied territories(meaning no disrespect to Palestinians who argue that East Jerusalem are part of the occupied territories). So, to be very clear, are you saying that you think the Jews are going to start forcibly evicting and ethnically cleansing Israeli Arabs from Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/589 "2012-11-25T05:01:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Mayhaps this article and the sources contained within might be of help in fighting the ignorance contained in your post. Then again, I doubt it. Rather blind to make statements such as that one while being willfully ignorant of the on-going current situation in a wide majority in predominantly Muslim nations. > > [**Most Muslims Want Democracy, Personal Freedoms, and Islam in Political Life**](http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/07/10/chapter-3-role-of-islam-in-politics/) > > – many more stats, graphs and sources @link. > > Niters. Got anything where it shows that those countries’ constitutions or governments happen to be opinion polls of the moment? For the record, _influence_ does not mean _actual government of the country_. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/590 "2012-11-25T05:05:18Z")
Information or propaganda? You decide. [**Gaza, Petraeus, Benghazi: US’ foreign policy fantasy continues unbroken**](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/20121121114549612880.html) [QUOTE= Paul Rosenberg] **Regarding the Israeli/Palestinian situation, Americans are repeatedly told that “the Palestinians don’t want peace”…** [/quote] – much more at source ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/591 "2012-11-25T05:07:09Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Got anything where it shows that those countries’ constitutions or governments happen to be opinion polls of the moment?..\*. Sure. Reality. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/592 "2012-11-25T05:07:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This comment makes utterly no sense. > > First of all Israel doesn’t have a constitution so how can they “change their constitution”? Oh for fucks sake: their county is codified under their [Basic Laws of Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Laws_of_Israel) We’re done. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/593 "2012-11-25T05:10:23Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Got anything where it shows that those countries’ constitutions or governments happen to be opinion polls of the moment? For the record, _influence_ does not mean _actual government of the country_. Actually he is correct that most Middle Eastern countries do have some official recognition of religion. For the most part, it’s comparable to the way Israel doesn’t have civil marriage and many family affairs are handled by religious courts. For example in most Middle Eastern countries religious courts, both Muslim and non-Muslim handle family affairs and most people have their religious identification their ID cards. I.E. “Christian” “Muslim”, “Jew” etc. This was true even in for example Mubarak’s Egypt. That’s why I noted in the post that Red apparently misread, that only a few of the nearly 60 Muslim nations were theocracies but many other had official recognition of religion. Of course the same is true with countless “Christian” countries. For example, even Red’s beloved Spain gives special recognition to the Catholic Church in it’s Constitution, but he’s apparently chosen to ignore this when claiming there were no Christian democracies. Again, if we start declaring governments to be “Muslim” based on official recognition of religion than the number of Christian democracies mushrooms in size. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/594 "2012-11-25T05:13:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh for fucks sake: their county is codified under their [Basic Laws of Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Laws_of_Israel) > > We’re done. That’s not a Constitution. Anyway, please explain what you meant by the “building of Jewish settlements” and the “displacing of Arab settlements”. Were you under the impression that the Arab Israelis live in the Occupied territories? If not, please explain why you think the Jews are going to start engaging in wide scale ethnic cleansing against Arab Israelis? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/595 "2012-11-25T05:19:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh for fucks sake: their county is codified under their [Basic Laws of Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Laws_of_Israel) > > We’re done. Hardly.The Hasbara brigade has a per-manufactured response everything. You’ll soon be hearing from them. Hate sounding like another (in)famous posters…but for fucks sake, I really have to be out of here. Though I see no point in showing-up at a get together almost two hours late. _:::sigh:::_ Is there a treatment vs intentional politics addiction? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/596 "2012-11-25T05:23:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually he is correct that most Middle Eastern countries do have some official recognition of religion. For the most part, it’s comparable to the way Israel doesn’t have civil marriage and many family affairs are handled by religious courts. For example in most Middle Eastern countries religious courts, both Muslim and non-Muslim handle family affairs and most people have their religious identification their ID cards. I.E. “Christian” “Muslim”, “Jew” etc. This was true even in for example Mubarak’s Egypt. > > That’s why I noted in the post that Red apparently misread, that only a few of the nearly 60 Muslim nations were theocracies but many other had official recognition of religion. > > Of course the same is true with countless “Christian” countries. For example, even Red’s beloved Spain gives special recognition to the Catholic Church in it’s Constitution, but he’s apparently chosen to ignore this when claiming there were no Christian democracies. > > Again, if we start declaring governments to be “Muslim” based on official recognition of religion than the number of Christian democracies mushrooms in size. I should add I was only referring to Muslim countries in the Middle East and most Muslim countries aren’t in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/597 "2012-11-25T05:39:58Z")
Tom Friedman has an interesting [op-ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/opinion/sunday/friedman-morsis-moment.html)in the NYT today. I don’t always agree with him, but he’s on the money here. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/598 "2012-11-25T06:03:32Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Perhaps this will make matters clearer – but I doubt it. > > [**Israeli courts must end anti-Arab discrimination**](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-courts-must-end-anti-arab-discrimination-1.376666) > > Something to think about. > > Say what, my turn to play Kreskin. I bet you’ll attack the source not the content. There are loads of similar studies that American courts have “anti-Black discrimination”. I guess that means that Blacks are a “permanent minority vote” as well. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/599 "2012-11-25T13:23:23Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > if fact I _really_ like the fact that being an atheist has no bearing on your status as an Israeli Were you under the impression it was otherwise? That practicing religion was somehow related to your status as an Israeli? > [@](#): > > I disagree that Israel is not safe. The reasons why become pretty clear when you look at the ‘balance’ of forces on both sides of the conflict – there is none. So I simply don’t buy into the “existential problem” of Israel. The facts on the ground simply don’t concur with said narrative. I wasn’t referring to the safety of Israel as a nation (although, looking at the atlas, a handful of nuclear bombs would erase it off the map). I was talking about the personal safety. There were periods in time, were your chance of getting hurt _for being a Jew_ were higher in Israel as compared to about anywhere else. But in any case, that was just a side note in my “narrative”, most of which you seem to have chosen to ignore. > [@](#): > > Here’s a literal [\*[url=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8g8tUICEAAEODZ.png:large]road map](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8g8tUICEAAEODZ.png:large)\* of how things stand now: Road System. > > Have at it justifying it. Why should I? Are you under the impression that every Israeli has to support the actions of his government? Do you support every action of yours? For the record, in the vast majority of elections, the party I elected ended up in the opposition. > [@](#): > > And mock and insult away while you are at it. I wouldn’t have opened this thread if I wasn’t pretty thick skinned – though mosquitoes don’t seem to notice. Huh!? You just wrote you didn’t remember me. What would you automatically think I have any intention of insulting you? This is supposed to be a debate, right? Unless you _want_ the insults, in which case please let me know, so I’ll sit this one out. > [@](#): > > If at all possible, _dispute the map_ – not the source. A few things: 1. The way it supposed to work is that someone makes a claim, and then provide cites to support it. If you think your source is inadequate, unbalanced, or insufficient, may I suggest you find better sources? Anyway, I’ll assume that at least the basics of the map are correct, and will let you know what I think. 2. Since the West Bank is not part of Israel, don’t you think it makes sense for the transportation system to be separated? 3. At lease WRT the roads in Israel, the map is false. The roads are not “Accessible only to Israelis”, but are rather accessible to anyone who enters the state lawfully. Come in as a tourist, and you may use the roads all you like. Much like any other state in the world. On the other hand, there are roads in the WB were Israelies may not enter. 4. Now, about the roads in the WB… as numbered in the map you provided 4-1. I’m not sure if it’s indeed “All Roads”, but I’d like to give you a hint as to why such roadside lands were created. Many Israelis (cites on request) were hurt by terrorist hiding in the vegetation. So, in order to increase the safety of travelers, and to save human lives, roads with less hiding spots were created. 4.2. See 4.4 4.3. Checkpoints were not erected to annoy the Palestinians or to disturb them. It is a way for Israel to maintain security – including in Israel proper, as was made evident by the suicide bombing of buses and such. So, Israel wishes to keep an eye on who’s going where, and especially – what arms do they carry with them. 4.4. Road 45 (and also 557). In the past, I happened to serve for a very short time in Gush Katif (before the disengagement). They had segregated roads there, with the Palestinians roads usually used by older people driving a cart harnessed to a donkey, and carrying dry wood. I enquired as to why such measures were taken, taking it to rather high levels of command. So, they showed me documentation from before the segregation of one such older guy, driving a cart, who drove it next to a bus of kids and exploded it. Luckily, an armored army vehicle noticed the suspicious movement, reacted very quickly, positioning itself between the bomb and the kids, saving them. I was convinced of the necessity. I’m not at all sure you would. 4.5. 443 is really much the same as 45. If the roads are segregated, they should be separated somehow. 4.6. I don’t like it any more than you do. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/600 "2012-11-25T13:46:52Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > Why should I? Are you under the impression that every Israeli has to support the actions of his government? Do you support every action of yours? Good question. I live in England. If my country’s world status depended on keeping the Welsh downtrodden, and treating their section of the British Isles as a prison camp, I’d have no respect for the authority of my supposed leaders and would actively campaign against blockades and such, even if they did have a bunch of extremists calling the shots in their own territory, and occasionally launched terrorist attacks on our soil. We get around 70 years on this planet and it’s way too short to spend the entirety of it hating your neighbours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=31)