# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/601 "2012-11-25T15:12:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > All this … analysis … notwithstanding, anyone care to comment on how the outcomes of this episode impact the practical paths going forward. > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s dumb ass election handbags. > > Meant very little, but achieved exactly what Netanyahu hoped it would. > > As you were. > [@Marley23](#): > > Formal warning issued. I told you about this several times. A thoughtful analysis would have been fine; but you haven’t showed much interest in that. For purposes of clarification, the ‘formal warning’ is for replying to a question too briefly, for not answering with a fully fledged argument? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/602 "2012-11-25T16:09:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Tom Friedman has an interesting [op-ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/opinion/sunday/friedman-morsis-moment.html)in the NYT today. I don’t always agree with him, but he’s on the money here. Nah, he refers to the possibility of “smart, courageous leadership” in the region. What an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/603 "2012-11-25T16:35:58Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Perhaps this will make matters clearer – but I doubt it. > > [**Israeli courts must end anti-Arab discrimination**](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-courts-must-end-anti-arab-discrimination-1.376666) > > Something to think about. > > Say what, my turn to play Kreskin. I bet you’ll attack the source not the content. To my mind, forecful expressions against racism commissioned by the Court Administration and Bar Association itself are good signs of the relative health of Israeli legal society, not bad signs. You would have a better point if the courts produced a study that said everything was hunky-dory. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/604 "2012-11-25T17:12:16Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Good question. I live in England. If my country’s world status depended on keeping the Welsh downtrodden, and treating their section of the British Isles as a prison camp, I’d have no respect for the authority of my supposed leaders and would actively campaign against blockades and such, even if they did have a bunch of extremists calling the shots in their own territory, and occasionally launched terrorist attacks on our soil. > > We get around 70 years on this planet and it’s way too short to spend the entirety of it hating your neighbours. Wouldn’t Northern Ireland be a better example? I’ll freely argue that the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have it worse than the Irish Catholics of Northern Ireland during the 80s(though possibly not the 70s) but I would vastly prefer be an Arab-Israeli to being a Catholic in Northern Ireland of that time(though perhaps not now). At least my elected representatives would be allowed to give media interviews. Anyway, I trust you were outraged by the UK’s refusal to pull out of Northern Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/605 "2012-11-25T18:24:59Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > For purposes of clarification, the ‘formal warning’ is for replying to a question too briefly, for not answering with a fully fledged argument? The warning is for repeating the comments over and over after I told you to stop. I told you to stop because you weren’t making an argument, you were just being obnoxious. If you do actually want to post some facts and arguments that this is related to the elections so that others can attempt a factual and on-topic response, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/606 "2012-11-25T19:00:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re ignoring the fact that there are quite literally millions of ethnic Turks, Moroccans, and others who’ve legally lived there for two or three generations without being granted citizenship. > > This is of course, quite disgusting to those of us who don’t believe that people born in our country, much less living there for multiple generations should be denied citizenship. Just being here is not enough to be granted citizenship. **But that has nothing to do with the religion**. At least I couldn’t find a case where someone was denied citizenship because he/she was a muslim. If you know one please cite. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/607 "2012-11-25T19:06:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The warning is for repeating the comments over and over after I told you to stop. I told you to stop because you weren’t making an argument, you were just being obnoxious. If you do actually want to post some facts and arguments that this is related to the elections so that others can attempt a factual and on-topic response, go ahead. If by “over and over” you mean twice before responding to the direct question I agree, otherwise you’re plain wrong. Fwiw, I expressed my view in my terms. If you insist that view is expressed within the very narrow parameters of some imaginary white, middle class, college graduated, polite society bollocks, then it explains why this board suffocates through lack of breadth. There is a big world out there feller; a lot of diversity. At least in this instance, your moderating looks seriously like an overblown ego trip. I’d get out a bit more if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/608 "2012-11-25T19:12:16Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Just being here is not enough to be granted citizenship. **But that has nothing to do with the religion**. > > At least I couldn’t find a case where someone was denied citizenship because he/she was a muslim. If you know one please cite. Ah, so you’re playing the “Germany isn’t a bigoted country it’s a racist country” card. FWIW, you’re right. Germany is an extremely racist country which has disgusting policies towards it’s non-white residents which all reasonable people should despise. Admittedly, Israel is worse, but that’s hardly anything to be proud of. All I can say is thank God I’m Iranian-American rather than an Arab-Israeli, an ethnic Turk living in Germany, or even worse, a Palestinian in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/609 "2012-11-25T19:16:09Z")
So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodnight! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/610 "2012-11-25T19:16:17Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > If you insist that view is expressed within the very narrow parameters of some imaginary white, middle class, college graduated, polite society bollocks, then it explains why this board suffocates through lack of breadth. There is a big world out there feller; a lot of diversity. What the fuck are you talking about? Are you under the impression that most Israelis or most Palestinians view themselves as “white”? Have you ever visited the area, talked to any people who have, or do you base your opinions on some shitty articles in wikipedia or something equally unreliable? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/611 "2012-11-25T19:17:15Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > If by “over and over” you mean twice before responding to the direct question I agree, otherwise you’re plain wrong. I counted at least five. > [@](#): > > If you insist that view is expressed within the very narrow parameters of some imaginary white, middle class, college graduated, polite society bollocks, then it explains why this board suffocates through lack of breadth. Like I said, I asked you to elaborate on your opinion so people could discuss it and perhaps find some meaning. If you would rather be a jerk about it and break the rules, fine - but it’s going to affect your ability to post here. > [@](#): > > At least in this instance, your moderating looks seriously like an overblown ego trip. I’d get out a bit more if I were you. You sure put that message board moderator in his place, you rebel you. This time I actually will suspend your account. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/612 "2012-11-25T19:21:41Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Just being here is not enough to be granted citizenship. **But that has nothing to do with the religion**. > > At least I couldn’t find a case where someone was denied citizenship because he/she was a muslim. If you know one please cite. What you guys are missing, I think, is that Israel is “Jewish” not in terms of religion, but in terms of ethno-nationalism. Thus Israel treats “Judaism” much like many European nations treat “ethnicity”. The reason Turks have had difficulty being German citizens is not that they are Muslim, it is because they are not “German” and thus cannot take advantage of the special provisions for obtaining citizenship that are available to “ethnic Germans”. > [@](#): > > German law allows persons of German descent living in countries of the former Warsaw pact (as well as Yugoslavia and China) the right to return to Germany and claim German citizenship (Aussiedler/Spätaussiedler “late emigrants”; de:Aussiedler). After legislative changes in late 1992 this right is de facto restricted to Germans from the former Soviet Union. As with many legal implementations of the Right of Return, the “return” to Germany of individuals who may never have lived in Germany based on their ethnic origin has been controversial. The law is codified in Article 116 of the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, which provides access to German citizenship for anyone “who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich within the boundaries of December 31, 1937 as a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such person”. This is functionally similar to the “Right of Return” available in Israel, which applies to those considered “ethnically Jewish” (note they need not actually be religiously Jewish - a Christian or Muslim who is the child, grandchild or spouse of a Jew is also considered “Jewish” as per the right of return). More on various nations having ethnically-based rights or return here: > **[Right of return](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return)** > > The right of return is a principle in international law which guarantees everyone's right of return to, or re-entry to, their country of citizenship. The right of return is part of the broader human rights concept of freedom of movement and is also related to the legal concept of nationality. While many states afford their citizens the right of abode, the right of return is not restricted to citizenship or nationality in the formal sense. It allows stateless persons and for those born outsi The r... ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/613 "2012-11-25T19:37:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ah, so you’re playing the “Germany isn’t a bigoted country it’s a racist country” card. > > FWIW, you’re right. Germany is an extremely racist country which has disgusting policies towards it’s non-white residents which all reasonable people should despise. What the fuck are you talking about? Please tell me what disgusting policies we have toward non-white residents. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/614 "2012-11-25T19:47:45Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? Please tell me what disgusting policies we have toward non-white residents. I didn’t realize that you knew so little about Germany’s policies. Are you saying you were completely ignorant of how man ethnic Turks, Morrocans etc. who weren’t given German citizenship despite having been born in Germany or even bing the children of people born in Germany? If you need to be educated on his racist the German government and people are I’ll be happy to help you out. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/615 "2012-11-25T19:54:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I didn’t realize that you knew so little about Germany’s policies. > > Are you saying you were completely ignorant of how man ethnic Turks, Morrocans etc. who weren’t given German citizenship despite having been born in Germany or even bing the children of people born in Germany? > > If you need to be educated on his racist the German government and people are I’ll be happy to help you out. Oh. Please do. I’m always happy to learn. Are we racists because there are more than 2 million Muslims in Germany that are not citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/616 "2012-11-25T20:06:17Z")
Really, this all has to do with the two ways citizenship is acquired: > [@](#): > > Broadly speaking, nationality law is based either on jus soli or jus sanguinis, or on a combination of the two. Jus soli (Latin: the law of the soil) is the principle by which a child born within a country’s territorial jurisdiction acquires that country’s nationality. Jus sanguinis (Latin: the law of the blood) is the principle by which a child acquires the nationality of his or her parents. Today, most if not all countries apply a mixture of these two principles: neither granting citizenship to everyone born within the country’s jurisdiction, nor denying citizenship to the children born abroad. It is common for countries, particularly European countries, to have some “Jus sanguinis” principles, including “rights of return” which favour certain ethnicities over others. This can be particularly problematic if the country does not also have “Jus soli” laws - as, for example, Germany did not re: Turks until I believe a decade ago or so. The practical effect of this was that “ethnic Germans” living in the former Soviet Union could easily become German citizens even if they had never lived in the country, but “ethnic Turks” who were born in Germany could not. The debate over Israel is of course conserning Israel’s version of the “right of return”. Israel does not, unlike Germany in the past decade, refuse citizenship to Muslims born in Israel. Rather, it discriminates by allowing those ethnically considered “Jewish” fast-track to citizenship, which fast track is denied to those who are not ethnically “Jewish” (who may still become citizens, but not automatically). As I’ve pointed out above, such provisions are in fact very common. The only difference, and what may be confusing some, is that Judaism is both religion and ethnicity - though the Israeli law of return makes it clear that ethnicity is what is meant, not religion, as those not considered “Jewish” by religious law are still eligible. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/617 "2012-11-25T20:11:34Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Oh. Please do. I’m always happy to learn. > Are we racists because there are more than 2 million Muslims in Germany that are not citizens? What he’s saying is that denying Muslims born in Germany citizenship, while giving said citizenship to “ethnic Germans” whether born in Germany or not, is racist. To my mind, a certain degree of racism is inherent in any nation based on ethnic nationalism - meaning, most nations, particularly European nations (as opposed to the US - Canada has its own issues with founding nationalisms, English and French). What is odd is that Israel tends to be singled out by Europeans who are simply unaware of this fact - a sort of pot-calling-kettle-black exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/618 "2012-11-25T20:27:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What he’s saying is that denying Muslims born in Germany citizenship, while giving said citizenship to “ethnic Germans” whether born in Germany or not, is racist. I have to admit: I didn’t think of that. You are right that is kind of racist. But IMHO [the requirements for becoming a naturalized German citizen](http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Standardartikel/EN/Themen/Migration/Staatsang/faq.html) are not unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/619 "2012-11-25T20:33:00Z")
And I think the [requirements in Israel](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/State/Acquisition+of+Israeli+Nationality.htm) are also reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/620 "2012-11-25T20:53:14Z")
Yup, it depends on what you are willing to tolerate. Ethnic nationalism implies a certain amount of racism (or more properly “ethnocentrism” as ethnicty may not be based on race), which will always be evident so long as nationalism remains based on identity. Israel is no different in this respect than many a European nation, such as Germany. Both have “rights of return” which are, in essence, ethnic preferences. In fact, both “rights of return” are based on the same set of events - the traumas created by WW2: in the case of Israel, the fact that no nation was willing to take in Jews when the Nazi Germans set out to exterminate them; in the case of Germany, the fact that the eastern part of the traditional settlement area of ethnic Germans was overrun by the Soviets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=32)