# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/621 "2012-11-25T21:16:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yup, it depends on what you are willing to tolerate. And I think it depends on how not-citizens are treated. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/622 "2012-11-25T22:15:38Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Oh. Please do. I’m always happy to learn. > Are we racists because there are more than 2 million Muslims in Germany that are not citizens? Yes. Denying citizenship to people born in your country based on their citizenship is both racist and relrehensible. To their credit. The Israelis, unlike the Spaniards, the Germans, or others automatically gran citizenship to people born in their country. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/623 "2012-11-26T01:08:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes. > > Denying citizenship to people born in your country based on their citizenship is both racist and relrehensible. I don’t think this makes a great deal of sense. Do you mean denying citizenship based on.. ethnicity? Race? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/624 "2012-11-26T01:09:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes. > > Denying citizenship to people born in your country based on their citizenship is both racist and relrehensible. > > To their credit. The Israelis, unlike the Spaniards, the Germans, or others automatically gran citizenship to people born in their country. If by “others” you mean every first world nation but the US & Canada, fine – not sure why you’re singling out Germany and Spain. Though in the first case I have a pretty good idea. [**Since 2004, no European country grants unconditional birthright citizenship**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli) ETA: BTW, it must not be such a bad place to move to seeing as [**Spain currently has the second highest immigration rates within the EU, just after Cyprus, and the second highest absolute net migration in the World (after the USA).**[7]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Spain). ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/625 "2012-11-26T01:17:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind, forecful expressions against racism commissioned by the Court Administration and Bar Association itself are good signs of the relative health of Israeli legal society, not bad signs. > > You would have a better point if the courts produced a study that said everything was hunky-dory. I disagree (bet you just fell off your chair 😉 ) – they admit the problem but thus far nothing has been done to remedy it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/626 "2012-11-26T01:24:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t think this makes a great deal of sense. Do you mean denying citizenship based on.. ethnicity? Race? Sorry. Yes, denying citizenship based on ethnicity is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/627 "2012-11-26T01:25:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes. > > Denying citizenship to people born in your country based on their citizenship is both racist and relrehensible. > > To their credit. The Israelis, unlike the Spaniards, the Germans, or others automatically gran citizenship to people born in their country. I’m sorry to say this but I still don’t really understand your problem with our laws concerning German citizenship. What do you think we do to the not-citizens? Especially the long time ones of Turkish descent? They go to the same kindergarten as German kids, they visit the same schools. They get the same jobs - earning the same payment as any German would do. Sadly a lot of them are stuck in menial jobs. But that is not caused by some racist laws - its caused by them not learning the German language. Now you probably think its racist that you need to speak German to get a good job in Germany. And I won’t try to change your opinion on that - especially since you now Germany and our oppressive, racist laws better than me. I almost forgot the only difference I know between a citizen and a not-citizen: They can’t vote in the general election. I’m sorry for that - that is a real hard punishment. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/628 "2012-11-26T01:39:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Tom Friedman has an interesting [op-ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/opinion/sunday/friedman-morsis-moment.html)in the NYT today. I don’t always agree with him, but he’s on the money here. Pretty clear that we don’t agree on much of anything regarding the IP conflict, but, unlike other posters that shall remain nameless, I do respect you “straight-shooter” approach. I happen to think we at least have that much in common. That said, would you object to formally having an inclusive “Israeli Democracy” as opposed to a “Jewish Democracy”? Meaning one that doesn’t favor any religion over the other as long as they are _citizens of Israel_ – and yes, I don’t have a problem with Israel adopting a jus sanguinis policy either. Just as long as it’s not based on religious grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/629 "2012-11-26T01:40:29Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > If by “others” you mean every first world nation but the US & Canada, fine – not sure why you’re singling out Germany and Spain. Though in the first case I have a pretty good idea. > > [**Since 2004, no European country grants unconditional birthright citizenship**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli). Actually, plenty of countries, such as the UK give citizenship to the children of UK residents. That said, you are correct, far too many European countries are racist shit holes. As to asking why, I’d single out Germany and Spain, well I’m surprised you’d ask such a question. I assume you’re familiar with how Germany treats Muslims and how bigoted Spaniards are towards Muslims, and, to a lesser extent Jews. Of course it would make sense to mention such racist countries. I assume of course you strongly object to the policies of both countries and think they should end their racist practices. BTW, I was hoping you could answer a simple question and prove that those who question your concern for the Palestinian people and their cause as opposed to merely enjoying socking it to the Jews. So once more, a question anyone who was remotely familiar with the Palestinians could answer. “What are ‘the freedom colors’ and what does the phrase ‘censorship’ have to do with them”? Also, you railed against the Palestinian Jews"stealing" land but insist that during La Reconquista Christians were merely retaking “their original lands”? Please explain why you hold Jews to different standards than Christians? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/630 "2012-11-26T01:44:22Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > I’m sorry to say this but I still don’t really understand your problem with our laws concerning German citizenship. What do you think we do to the not-citizens? Especially the long time ones of Turkish descent? They go to the same kindergarten as German kids, they visit the same schools. They get the same jobs - earning the same payment as any German would do. Sadly a lot of them are stuck in menial jobs. But that is not caused by some racist laws - its caused by them not learning the German language. Now you probably think its racist that you need to speak German to get a good job in Germany. And I won’t try to change your opinion on that - especially since you now Germany and our oppressive, racist laws better than me. > I almost forgot the only difference I know between a citizen and a not-citizen: They can’t vote in the general election. I’m sorry for that - that is a real hard punishment. I’m sorry you feel the need to defend Germany’s racist laws which refuse to grant citizenship to those born in Germany. Most reasonable people recognize those as being disgusting and reprehensible. That said, just as there are some people who defend Israel’s racist laws and Jim Crow there are people who defend Germany’s racist practices. Thankfully, I live in a civilized country which takes a stand against racism. Hopefully one of these days Germany will join the civilized world. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/631 "2012-11-26T01:44:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sorry. Yes, denying citizenship based on ethnicity is racist. Man do we have different definitions of racism. When I hear racism I think about segregation. I think about people beaten in the street because of the color of there skin. I think about people oppressed by a so called “better” race. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/632 "2012-11-26T01:48:20Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Man do we have different definitions of racism. When I hear racism I think about segregation. I think about people beaten in the street because of the color of there skin. I think about people oppressed by a so called “better” race. I’m sorry that you’re ashamed of Germany’s disgusting racist practices for which most decent people would be disgusted. I’ve alway though it somewhat poignant that most of the 911 hijackers weren’t remotely radical until they went to Germany and were treated like such shit by the Germans. Anyway, hopefully just as one day those who defended Jim Crow came to recognize how they’d defended racism you’ll come to feel the same. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/633 "2012-11-26T01:52:41Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Meaning one that doesn’t favor any religion over the other as long as they are _citizens of Israel_ – and yes, I don’t have a problem with Israel adopting a jus sanguinis policy either. Considering that you live in a Catholic democracy which gives recognition to the Catholic Church in its constitution but no other that is a remarkably foolish comment. By contrast Israel does grant recognition to both Muslim and Christian religious bodies. If you wish to look like you actually know or care about the plight of the Palestinians, ask him about interfaith marriage in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/634 "2012-11-26T01:52:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I assume you’re familiar with how Germany treats Muslims and how bigoted Spaniards are towards Muslims, and, to a lesser extent Jews. > > Of course it would make sense to mention such racist countries. please, please tell me. Show me a cite. What evil do we Germans do to the Muslims - And to a lesser extent to Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/635 "2012-11-26T01:54:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sorry that you’re ashamed of Germany’s disgusting racist practices for which most decent people would be disgusted. > > I’ve alway though it somewhat poignant that most of the 911 hijackers weren’t remotely radical until they went to Germany and were treated like such shit by the Germans. **Cite?** ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/636 "2012-11-26T01:57:40Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > **Cite?** [http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353894909&sr=8-1&keywords=Perfect+Soldiers](http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353894909&sr=8-1&keywords=Perfect+Soldiers) You’re that surprised to hear about Middle Easterners being mistreated by representatives of the Aryan race? What’s next? White Americans shocked at black people complaining about their treatment or Poles shocked that African immigrants saying that when they were in Warsaw they were taunted by people making monkey noises? ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/637 "2012-11-26T02:02:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > [http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353894909&sr=8-1&keywords=Perfect+Soldiers](http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353894909&sr=8-1&keywords=Perfect+Soldiers) > > You’re that surprised to hear about Middle Easterners being mistreated by representatives of the Aryan race? > > What’s next? > > White Americans shocked at black people complaining about their treatment or Poles shocked that African immigrants saying that when they were in Warsaw they were taunted by people making monkey noises? wow! that is compelling. The word “Germany” just below [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) right next to France and Italy - the well known axis of evil European car makers. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/638 "2012-11-26T02:11:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > [http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353894909&sr=8-1&keywords=Perfect+Soldiers](http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353894909&sr=8-1&keywords=Perfect+Soldiers) > > You’re that surprised to hear about Middle Easterners being mistreated by representatives of the Aryan race? > > What’s next? > > White Americans shocked at black people complaining about their treatment or Poles shocked that African immigrants saying that when they were in Warsaw they were taunted by people making monkey noises? Uh… BTW not knowing who the Aryans where is not exactly good for the argument you are trying to make… I give you a hint: Its not the Germans. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/639 "2012-11-26T02:20:09Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > wow! that is compelling. The word “Germany” just below [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) right next to France and Italy - the well known axis of evil European car makers. Huh? What are you talking about? The link isn’t broken. I linked to the book _Perfect Soldiers: the 911 hijackers: Who they were why they did what they did_. Did you misunderstand it. > [@](#): > > Uh… BTW not knowing who the Aryans where is not exactly good for the argument you are trying to make… > I give you a hint: Its not the Germans. Heh. You really don’t know who you’re arguing with do you? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/640 "2012-11-26T02:24:08Z")
\Pretty sure you know what you can do with your “pop-quizzes.” I sure as hell do (know) That said, please explain the parallels between the Spanish Golden Age and the current American one. Or not. As for “bigoted Spain”…well, fight your own ignorance: [**Muslims in Spain are the least concerned about European anti-Muslim sentiment – fewer than a third (31%) say most or many Europeans have hostile attitudes compared with 64% who see only some or very few as hostile. In Great Britain, 42% of Muslims judge that many or most of their European hosts are unfriendly, while in France, 39% of resident Muslims share that view. Only in Germany does a narrow 51%-majority of resident Muslims view most (22%) or many (29%) Europeans as hostile.**](http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/07/06/muslims-in-europe-economic-worries-top-concerns-about-religious-and-cultural-identity/) That said, if I move to say, Iran, I’ll respect their laws and culture – same as I expect an immigrant to the US, Germany, Spain etc. to respect theirs. As a Spanish ex-pat in both the US and now in the Dom Rep that is exactly what I did – an do. Despite not understanding/agreeing (especially in the DR, the US I have little to complain about other than the prevalent hyperpatriotism; reminds me a tad much to Franco’s Spain that I grew-up in) with a bunch of their cultural & mostly religious mores, I abide by them as much as I can. Have I fully assimilated? Not by half, but I like it here just fine. Right.\ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=33)