# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/641 "2012-11-26T02:29:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > What are you talking about? > > The link isn’t broken. I linked to the book _Perfect Soldiers: the 911 hijackers: Who they were why they did what they did_. > > Did you misunderstand it. and the evil Germans are not mentioned once in the description or the reviews. wow we must really play a major roll. but pst! don’t talk about it. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Heh. You really don’t know who you’re arguing with do you? Obviously you don’t. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re that surprised to hear about Middle Easterners being mistreated by representatives of the Aryan race? lol. please answer this simple question: who is the Aryan race? And again let me give you a hint: The opinion of an Austrian post-card-painter does not change reality. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/642 "2012-11-26T02:33:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …Heh. You really don’t know who you’re arguing with do you? God. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/643 "2012-11-26T02:39:07Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > \Pretty sure you know what you can do with your “pop-quizzes.” Translation, you refuse to answer a simple question that anyone knowledgable about the Palestinians or their cause would be able to answer. The most likely explanation for that is that you actually don’t know or care anything about them but merely like to use them as a club to bash Israel. > [@](#): > > That said, please explain the parallels between the Spanish Golden Age I agree, when ruled by Muslims, Spain underwent a Golden Age. > [@](#): > > [Unfavorable Views of Jews and Muslims on the Increase in Europe | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/09/17/unfavorable-views-of-jews-and-muslims-on-the-increase-in-europe/) Considering the fact that 52% of Spaniards have an unfavorable view of Muslims you’re the one who has the ignorance which needs to be fought. Spaniards apparently are even more bigoted against Muslims than they are(46%) against Jews. I’m sorry you’re so ignorant of your own country. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/644 "2012-11-26T02:43:35Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > please answer this simple question: who is the Aryan race? > And again let me give you a hint: The opinion of an Austrian post-card-painter does not change reality. Again, you really don’t know who you’re arguing with do you. I’ll give you a hint. Why did Persia become Iran and what does Iran mean. Anyway, calm down, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. > [@](#): > > and the evil Germans are not mentioned once in the description or the reviews. wow we must really play a major roll. but pst! don’t talk about it. Not sure what point you’re trying to make. You demanded a cite and I pointed you towards the book. I don’t know why you’re still so upset. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/645 "2012-11-26T02:54:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Again, you really don’t know who you’re arguing with do you. > > I’ll give you a hint. > > Why did Persia become Iran and what does Iran mean. > > Anyway, calm down, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. > > Not sure what point you’re trying to make. > > You demanded a cite and I pointed you towards the book. I don’t know why you’re still so upset. Yeah… I know that Iran means “land of the Aryan” - I was not sure that you do. But you did know and with > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re that surprised to hear about Middle Easterners being mistreated by representatives of the Aryan race? you wanted to express your opinion that Iran is to blame for 9/11? Oh - your cite meant to convince me that we Germans mistreat Muslims? Did you know that Blue Bears have more than 13 1/2 lives? [Cite.](http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Captain-Bluebear-Walter-Moers/dp/1585678449/) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/646 "2012-11-26T03:03:39Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Yeah… I know that Iran means “land of the Aryan” - I was not sure that you do. > But you did know and with > > you wanted to express your opinion that Iran is to blame for 9/11? > > Oh - your cite meant to convince me that we Germans mistreat Muslims? > > Did you know that Blue Bears have more than 13 1/2 lives? [Cite.](http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Captain-Bluebear-Walter-Moers/dp/1585678449/) Dude, keep your panties on. I was making a joke. The whole idea of the Aryan race is a myth. BTW, I never said that Germany was to blame for 911. I merely pointed out and provided a source for the argument that most of the 911 hijackers weren’t radicalized until they came to Germany and were radicalized by their experiences there. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/647 "2012-11-26T03:25:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So once more, a question anyone who was remotely familiar with the Palestinians could answer. > > “What are ‘the freedom colors’ and what does the phrase ‘censorship’ have to do with them”? At some point could you elaborate on this for those of us who are less informed once you are through using it (somewhat ineffectually, as he doesn’t appear to care) as a cudgel on **Red**? ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/648 "2012-11-26T03:32:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, keep your panties on. I was making a joke. The whole idea of the Aryan race is a myth. > > BTW, I never said that Germany was to blame for 911. I merely pointed out and provided a source for the argument that most of the 911 hijackers weren’t radicalized until they came to Germany and were radicalized by their experiences there. shame on me for taking you seriously. **@RedFury** I really have to apologize. When I started reading this thread I thought that > [@RedFury](#): > > you are simply pixels on my monitor. Mostly unconvincing ones, I’ll give you that. was kind of harsh. Now - although we most definitively do not see eye to eye on the Israeli thing - I have to admit that you knew Ibn\_Warraq better than me. I’m out of here. There is nothing to gain from talking to a (“funny”) wall. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/649 "2012-11-26T03:32:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Middle Easterners being mistreated by representatives of the Aryan race? You are out of line. This whole path of fixating on Spain and Germany as examples of “racist” countries when you are debating residents of those countries comes too close to personal attacks, (particularly when you mention ONLY those countries and not the many other countries with similar laws and policies). However, throwing in the “Aryan” dig is over the top. Back off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/650 "2012-11-26T03:37:45Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > At some point could you elaborate on this for those of us who are less informed once you are through using it (somewhat ineffectually, as he doesn’t appear to care) as a cudgel on **Red**? Fair enough. until the early 90s, Israel made display of the Palestinian flag or the colors of the Palestinian flag as if part of a flag(I.E. on a cake or a T-shirt) a crime. That’s why so many of the Palestinian flags at protests in the 80s and 90s were obviously handmade. When Palestinians wanted to make them they’d go to a shop and say “I need the colors” or “I need the freedom colors”. Since “the handshake” and the founding of the PA that isn’t the case. Also, I wasn’t using the question as a cudgel against him, but as a test as to how much he actually knew about the people he claims to care for. Obviously the answer is next to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/651 "2012-11-26T03:39:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I agree, when ruled by Muslims, Spain underwent a Golden Age. Not quite. Epic ‘joke’ fail or plain ignorance? Let the reader decide. [**Why America Is Like Imperial Spain**](http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=8938) Is there any possible way to keep this thread on track? And yes, I am guilty of doing so – the off-topic barbs are flying fast and furious. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/652 "2012-11-26T03:44:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > No ONE is “justified” in killing civilians. Period. War is hell. We’ve killed civilians in every military conflict we have ever engaged in. It’s unavoidable. > [@](#): > > Which will only happen when Israel finally adheres to the near unanimous – with only three ‘real’ nations continually voting against: The US, Israel & Australia (US veto ‘wins’) – resolution of the yearly UN General Assembly along the unanimous - one backing of [**The International Court Of Justice**](http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca). Which as you’ll see in its advisory opinion on The Wall ruled against three of the four major points of contention in the dispute: The Settlements, East Jerusalem and West Bank borders. And Israel has the same right to continue engaging in an unwise conflict as the Palestinians. If the Palestinians were willing to recognize Israel and compromise the right of return it would be a lot easier to take sides in this conflict. Right now, while we can take issue with how they are behaving, it’s hard to fault the Israeli for their attitude towards people that want to see them dead. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/653 "2012-11-26T03:49:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are out of line. > > This whole path of fixating on Spain and Germany as examples of “racist” countries when you are debating residents of those countries comes too close to personal attacks, (particularly when you mention ONLY those countries and not the many other countries with similar laws and policies). > However, throwing in the “Aryan” dig is over the top. > > Back off. > > [/Moderating] Fair enough. I mentioned Germany long before getting into an argument with Tab. You can check back in the thread to see that. In fact the argument with him started because he demanded to know what German laws were so racist. I singled out Germany because I know of no other country with such a large percentage of it’s population being second and third generation residents without being given citizenship and Germany’s treatment of it’s Muslim minority is notoriously bad. Spain also has a large number of Muslims who’ve been born there without being given citizenship and I was under the impression that they came in second to Germany when it came to that. I also mentioned Spain because it’s just about the most Islamophobic country in Europe except possibly for Germany. That being said, yes, I will back off. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/654 "2012-11-26T03:52:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Fair enough. > > until the early 90s, Israel made display of the Palestinian flag or the colors of the Palestinian flag as if part of a flag(I.E. on a cake or a T-shirt) a crime. > > That’s why so many of the Palestinian flags at protests in the 80s and 90s were obviously handmade. When Palestinians wanted to make them they’d go to a shop and say “I need the colors” or “I need the freedom colors”. > > Since “the handshake” and the founding of the PA that isn’t the case. > > Also, I wasn’t using the question as a cudgel against him, but as a test as to how much he actually knew about the people he claims to care for. Obviously the answer is next to nothing. I dunno, I consider myself relatively pro-Palestinian (if rather aggressively anti-Hamas) and I think you’re a bit off in your reasoning here. I get that it has a particular resonance to know the ground-level feelings on the issue, but I don’t think that knowing the phrase “freedom colors” has any particular effects on the macro conversation vs. “I know the Israelis banned all depictions of the Palestinian flag prior to the (IIRC) the Oslo accords”, which is something I knew but didn’t connect in any way with the specific phrasing you used. For that matter, I’ve never heard of the Oslo Accords being referred to as “the handshake”, either–although that makes the most sense from my knowledge of the region’s history, and I might yet be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/655 "2012-11-26T03:53:30Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > Uh… BTW not knowing who the Aryans where is not exactly good for the argument you are trying to make… > I give you a hint: Its not the Germans. No, you’re thinking of Caucasians. The “Aryan race” is a defunct concept of a ethno-linguistic sub-race of the Caucasian ethnic race that spoke Indo-European languages and did, in fact, include Germans. The entire thing is hogwash, of course, but believing in its’ existence is the chief requisite of Aryanism. It originated in the 1800s as a linguistic classification, but was hijacked with political demagoguery in the 1900s to justify Nazism. ETA: Ack, disregard the above. I let the post cook for a while and missed the hijack being shut down. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/656 "2012-11-26T03:54:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering that you live in a Catholic democracy which gives recognition to the Catholic Church in its constitution but no other that is a remarkably foolish comment. Yes, I am sure the RCC was pleased as punch when Spain became the third/fourth nation in the world to legalize gay marriage and their adoption right. Shows just how much ‘power’ the RCC has in mainstream Spain – in fact it has the Pope in a tizzy as he said in his recent visit to Madrid…and all of the civil protests against his statements. Never mind the near empty religious seminars who used to roll priest factory style. :rolleyes: Yup, Spain is closing in on a Theocratic ‘democracy’ – 'cept the opposite is reality. NB: won’t be responding to any more of of your posts/prods that have nothing to do with _this thread_. Sick and tired of your “look over there” schtick. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/657 "2012-11-26T04:00:49Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > For that matter, I’ve never heard of the Oslo Accords being referred to as “the handshake”, either–although that makes the most sense from my knowledge of the region’s history, and I might yet be wrong. “The handshake” refers to the handshake between Rabin and Arafat. Words alone can’t describe just what an emotional impact that image had on both the Palestinians and the Israelis. That said, over time that phrase has been less and less used. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/658 "2012-11-26T04:05:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yes, I am sure the RCC was pleased as punch when Spain became the third/fourth nation in the world to legalize gay marriage and their adoption right. Shows just how much ‘power’ the RCC has in mainstream Spain – in fact it has the Pope in a tizzy as he said in his recent visit to Madrid…and all of the civil protests against his statements. Never mind the near empty religious seminars who used to roll priest factory style. :rolleyes: > > Yup, Spain is closing in on a Theocratic ‘democracy’ – 'cept the opposite is reality. Not sure your point. Sweden is Christian democracy yet no one thinks that it’s a theocracy. This entire hijack began by one poster talking sarcastically about Egypt becoming “a Muslim democracy” as if that was a bad thing. I pointed out there are many “Christian democracies” which haven’t become theocracies and there’s no reason to believe that a Muslim democracy could follow the same tradition. In fact most countries in the Middle East give some official recognition to religion without turning into Iran. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/659 "2012-11-26T04:12:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, plenty of countries, such as the UK give citizenship to the children of UK residents… BTW, this is factually wrong as well: [l\*\*ex soli: By birth in the United Kingdom **to a parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent who is settled in the United Kingdom** \*\*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law) Certainly subjective and not a sole requirement by **law**. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/660 "2012-11-26T04:19:55Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > shame on me for taking you seriously. > > **@RedFury** > I really have to apologize. When I started reading this thread I thought that > > was kind of harsh. Now - although we most definitively do not see eye to eye on the Israeli thing - I have to admit that you knew Ibn\_Warraq better than me. > > I’m out of here. There is nothing to gain from talking to a (“funny”) wall. No worries. I have been here long enough – likely too long – to recognize certain “pattern posters.” Stick around and you will too. Best always. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=34)