# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/661 "2012-11-26T04:21:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, and I wonder if a democratic Egypt will be judged by the same standards as Israel. Or if people will still relentlessly single Israel out for wildly disproportionate criticism. I think that a lot of folks take issue with how Israel was formed. A sort of original sin that can only be forgiven by those who were sinned against. And instead of trying to make amends Israel opted for oppression and ghettos. Sure there are two sides to the story but Egypt doesn’t have to deal with the same baggage. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/662 "2012-11-26T04:31:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I singled out Germany because I know of no other country with such a large percentage of it’s population being second and third generation residents without being given citizenship and Germany’s treatment of it’s Muslim minority is notoriously bad. (I just couldn’t stay away) Ok. If our treatment of the Muslim minority is notorisously bad you should be able to document that with a cite. Actually with hundreds of cites. Until now all you had was a book at amazon… and there are books about a lot of things. Including Blue Bears with 13 1/2 lives… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/663 "2012-11-26T04:36:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > BTW, this is factually wrong as well: [l\*\*ex soli: By birth in the United Kingdom **to a parent who is a British citizen at the time of the birth, or to a parent who is settled in the United Kingdom** \*\*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law) > > Certainly subjective and not a sole requirement by **law**. Er… “or to a parent who is settled in the United Kingdom”. Meaning, as I said, “a resident.” The children of Pakistani immigrants in the UK gain British citizenship automatically. The children of Turkish immigrants, not so much. One of the 911 hijackers was shocked to find out that the university he went to in Germany was supposed to be more than half “foreign” but virtually all the “foreigners” there had been born in Germany and in some cases they were the children of people who’d been born there. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/664 "2012-11-26T04:46:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > War is hell. We’ve killed civilians in every military conflict we have ever engaged in. It’s unavoidable. I am certainly aware of that – rather sad that through ‘progress’ many more civilians are killed than in the past. We no longer restrict conflicts to battlefields and opposing armies. Or to put it simply everything is is a ‘war zone’ and whomever dies in it is “collateral damage.” > [@](#): > > And Israel has the same right to continue engaging in an unwise conflict as the Palestinians. If the Palestinians were willing to recognize Israel and compromise the right of return it would be a lot easier to take sides in this conflict. Right now, while we can take issue with how they are behaving, it’s hard to fault the Israeli for their attitude towards people that want to see them dead. Please look-up the UN & ICOJ resolutions that I linked to upthread – plus Amnesty International & Human Rights Watch statements on the matter. The issues in the conflict on both sides have been ruled upon not just clearly but to a “T.” I honestly don’t give a shit which side likes what they rule or not – at this point I only want them enforced. What happens afterwards, I have no idea…but if they are (enforced) and broken by either side, I will have no sympathy whatsoever for the side that does. Nor, I suspect, will the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/665 "2012-11-26T04:48:42Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > (I just couldn’t stay away) > Ok. If our treatment of the Muslim minority is notorisously bad you should be able to document that with a cite. Actually with hundreds of cites. Until now all you had was a book at amazon… > and there are books about a lot of things. Including Blue Bears with 13 1/2 lives… You’re unaware that there’s a tremendous amount of racism against the Muslim minority in Germany? No offense, but that’s about as credible as a white southerner claiming he’s unaware of anti-black racism in the South or someone from Israel denying knowledge of anti-Arab racism. Also, the fact that you flippantly dismiss a book that you haven’t even read by a highly-regarded journalist doesn’t inspire much confidence that any cite will do. That said, I’ll presume you’d find a study by the pew research center finds 50% of all Germans have an unfavorable view of Muslims, higher than any other European country except Spain, to be adequate. [http://pewresearch.org/pubs/955/unfavorable-views-of-both-jews-and-muslims-increase-in-europe](http://pewresearch.org/pubs/955/unfavorable-views-of-both-jews-and-muslims-increase-in-europe) ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/666 "2012-11-26T04:49:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > One of the 911 hijackers was shocked to find out that the university he went to in Germany was supposed to be more than half “foreign” but virtually all the “foreigners” there had been born in Germany and in some cases they were the children of people who’d been born there. We Germans are pure evil. We send all those stupid inferior races to our universitys to become doctors, lawyers and scientists. We are that kind of sneaky… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/667 "2012-11-26T04:51:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re presuming people actually give a shit about Egypt’s Arab citizens? > > You might as well wonder why we don’t have more threads concerning Turkey’s occupation and settling of Northern Cyprus. > > Or, of course you might wonder why don’t have more threads criticizing Germany and other European countries which refuse to give citizenship to Muslims who’ve lived there for multiple generations. AFAICT you are talking about the fact that citizenship is not automatically conferred to illegal aliens. This would apply to Chinese Buddhist illegal aliens just as much as it does to Muslims. Or is there some kind of anti-Muslim citizenship law I don’t know about? It’s not like they are telling Muslim German citizens that if they marry a Muslim, the marriage will not qualify their spouse for citizenship. Or that the status of their children would be any different than the status of the children of other marriages where one spouse was an immigrant. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/668 "2012-11-26T04:54:44Z")
> [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](#): > > We Germans are pure evil. We send all those stupid inferior races to our universitys to become doctors, lawyers and scientists. We are that kind of sneaky… Er, you should see the people in those universities as fellow Germans. They were born and raised there after all. I’m reminded of white Americans insisting that Mexican Americans aren’t real Americans. Why don’t you view them as fellow Germans? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/669 "2012-11-26T04:56:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. Politically this was an extremely stupid move. Anyone who says Netanyahu did this to bolster his election chances doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I’m pretty sure Romney thought it would be politically good to make a point of whether or not Obama said the words “act of terror” Just because it didn’t work out plitically doesn’t mean that bibi didn’t think it would. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/670 "2012-11-26T04:57:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > AFAICT you are talking about the fact that citizenship is not automatically conferred to illegal aliens. Er…the Turks living in Germany aren’t illegal aliens. They’re legal residents. Unfortunately, because of Germany’s racist laws there are millions of ethnic Turks born and raised in Germany who aren’t German citizens. Aside from being the right thing to do, granting them citizenship wold be a very good way of integrating them into society. Where did you hear they were “illegal aliens”? ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/671 "2012-11-26T05:00:04Z")
What’s wrong with both sides accepting the land they have now and calling the confrontation quits? That’s an actual question, not a suggestion. The way I understand the situation, there will be loss incurred by one side or the other no matter what. Why not keep a boundary that at least had peace for a while? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/672 "2012-11-26T05:10:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re ignoring the fact that there are quite literally millions of ethnic Turks, Moroccans, and others who’ve legally lived there for two or three generations without being granted citizenship. > > This is of course, quite disgusting to those of us who don’t believe that people born in our country, much less living there for multiple generations should be denied citizenship. Are you talking about denial of citizenship to Palestinians? You don’t think there is a difference between the two situations? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/673 "2012-11-26T05:16:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you talking about denial of citizenship to Palestinians? You don’t think there is a difference between the two situations? Palestinians born in Israel are automatically granted citizenship or are you talking about the refugees who were born in Israel prior to 1948? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/674 "2012-11-26T05:18:05Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > What’s wrong with both sides accepting the land they have now and calling the confrontation quits? That’s an actual question, not a suggestion. > > The way I understand the situation, there will be loss incurred by one side or the other no matter what. Why not keep a boundary that at least had peace for a while? Each side is too committed to the “all or nothing” approach for something as reasonable as what you suggest to ever become reality. That would involve trust and compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/675 "2012-11-26T05:19:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Do you have to insult every post you disagree with? Fact is you’ve been proven wrong many many times without making it personal’ I’m not sure he realizes how insulting he is being. No offense but I don’t think English is his first language so there is probably some sort of cultural dissonance occurring. So something that might seem rude to us might be entirely acceptable and polite to him. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/676 "2012-11-26T05:19:19Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > What’s wrong with both sides accepting the land they have now and calling the confrontation quits? That’s an actual question, not a suggestion. > > The way I understand the situation, there will be loss incurred by one side or the other no matter what. I’m not sure how viable either the West Bank or Gaza would be as independent countries. > [@](#): > > Why not keep a boundary that at least had peace for a while? I’m aware of any boundary that has had peace in any meaningful sense “for a while”. ---
**Author:** ![Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Tab\_Q.Wertus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tab_Q.Wertus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/677 "2012-11-26T05:20:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er, you should see the people in those universities as fellow Germans. They were born and raised there after all. > > I’m reminded of white Americans insisting that Mexican Americans aren’t real Americans. > > Why don’t you view them as fellow Germans? Oh my… I actually think of them as fellow humans - I really don’t care about nationality, religion or color of skin. You implied that we tread them somehow worse because they are not Germans. If worse means an university degree… But who am I talking to… What was that definition of insanity again? Trying the same thing again and again in the hope of a different outcome? You simply have no idea of the live in Germany. I’m really out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/678 "2012-11-26T05:22:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > All I can say is thank God I’m Iranian-American rather than an Arab-Israeli, an ethnic Turk living in Germany, or even worse, a Palestinian in the West Bank. Ah shit. Ignore my previous post. I thought you were posting from overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/679 "2012-11-26T05:34:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ah shit. Ignore my previous post. I thought you were posting from overseas. Huh? Don’t worry there’s no offense taken. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/680 "2012-11-26T05:36:22Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > What’s wrong with both sides accepting the land they have now and calling the confrontation quits? That’s an actual question, not a suggestion. > > The way I understand the situation, there will be loss incurred by one side or the other no matter what. Why not keep a boundary that at least had peace for a while? Simple. Because that is not what either the UN nor the ICOJ & the main two Human Rights organizations have a consensus on. And once more, their ruling doesn’t particularly please either side. Tough shit to both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=35)