# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/61 "2012-11-16T20:02:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You are claiming these cites of yours as unbiased? You are joking, right? 😃 No. I am not – not even going to counter with the “but you guys do it too. _All the time_.” 😉 But I repeat, if there’s a challenge, please bring it up and cite it. I have been doing a lot of reading on this event and haven’t seen any. * * * BTW, **Malthus** , pardon for not responding to you last night but I missed you post amongst the many others. You were actually the only one to tackle the question in the OP about possible reactions within the changing face of the ME. I think these two statements from today by Erdogan & Morsi respectively, do reflect a certain change in tone from prior occasions. STM this might yet turn out to be Israel’s (and Bibi’s) biggest mistake yet. [\*\*Erdogan: Israeli strikes a pre-election stunt. Turkish prime minister lays blame for conflict firmly on Jewish state, tells reporters ‘before this election they shot these innocent people in Gaza for reasons they fabricated\*\*’]([http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306829,00.html](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306829,00.html)) > [@](#): > > \*\*“I hope (a) decision of the UN Security Council and the attitude of the dominant powers will end Israel’s offensive attitude,” Erdogan said. > > “We don’t have any relations with Israel left. The countries which have relations with Israel should talk to them.”\*\* [**Egypt president toughens rhetoric on Israel**](http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2012/11/16/thousands-rally-in-egypt-against-israel-offensive) > [@](#): > > “\*\*Egyptians love peace … but they have always been able to fend off aggressors and protect the land, the nation and the Muslim world,” he said in his address at a mosque near his home in a Cairo suburb. “We are even more insistent on remaining a protective shield to the Arab and Muslim world.” > > “We say to the aggressor, peace will never be achieved through aggression … because war does not build stability or peace,” Morsi said. “This blood will be a curse on you,” he said as the crowd in the mosque chanted, “God is great” and “With our blood and souls, we sacrifice for Palestine.” > > “I say to the aggressor to take a lesson from history and stop this farce and bloodshed or else you will face the wrath of the people and their leadership,” he said. “Egypt today is different than Egypt yesterday and that the Arabs today are different than the Arabs of yesterday.\*\*” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/62 "2012-11-16T20:38:02Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > No. I am not – not even going to counter with the “but you guys do it too. _All the time_.” 😉 > > But I repeat, if there’s a challenge, please bring it up and cite it. I have been doing a lot of reading on this event and haven’t seen any. You are I think conflating two different things. (1) The sources are biased; and (2) The sources are wrong in the actual facts they allege. I have no idea wherether #2 is the case with your sources. However, #1 is obvious on its face. Your sources are very clearly biased. That would be true even if every single fact they relate is 100% true and accurate. The problem here is that few or none of us are in a position to judge the accuracy of facts on the ground as they happen. One clue as to the reliability of facts as alleged is judging the accuracy of the source. Your position appears to be ‘well, if you think they are wrong, prove them wrong’, but it does not work that way - it is up to the person making allegations to prove that they have substance, and that proof is rendered more convincing if it is based on sources which do not (as your sources clearly do) demonize one side of a conflict and support the other side, and use obvious manipulation and emotive appeals that are entirely one-sided. That goes for anyone proving anything about current events of course, but this thread is the most egregious example I have seen, at least today. 😃 > [@](#): > > BTW, **Malthus** , pardon for not responding to you last night but I missed you post amongst the many others. You were actually the only one to tackle the question in the OP about possible reactions within the changing face of the ME. > > I think these two statements from today by Erdogan & Morsi respectively, do reflect a certain change in tone from prior occasions. STM this might yet turn out to be Israel’s (and Bibi’s) biggest mistake yet. > > [\*\*Erdogan: Israeli strikes a pre-election stunt. > > Turkish prime minister lays blame for conflict firmly on Jewish state, tells reporters ‘before this election they shot these innocent people in Gaza for reasons they fabricated\*\*’]([http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306829,00.html](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306829,00.html)) > > [**Egypt president toughens rhetoric on Israel**](http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2012/11/16/thousands-rally-in-egypt-against-israel-offensive) You would expect the Turks and Egyptians to react with a lot of harsh words. Both have no love for Israel (whether run by Bibi or not). The Turks have a major beef with the Israelis over the Cyprus natural gas deal, and that has driven relations between the two countries into the toilet for the last few years. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/world/europe/in-cyprus-race-for-natural-gas-adds-to-tensions.html?pagewanted=all&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/world/europe/in-cyprus-race-for-natural-gas-adds-to-tensions.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) The Egyptian Islamist leadership naturally hates Israel - they share a common origin with Hamas. Whether either of those two will do more than make angry noises is yet to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/63 "2012-11-16T20:42:03Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > If you challenge them, cite please. Well, no offense, but your cites do say that the Israeli attacks are in response to rocket fire from Gaza. The only difference seems to be that your sources blame Israel for starting it, because they shot some mentally disturbed Palestinian when he tried to sneak up to the border, and (apparently) didn’t respond to challenges from the border guards. The other issue is that they claim the Israelis shot a teen-ager named Ahmed Younis Khader Abu Daqqa, allegedly while he was playing football. The first one, even if I take it at face value, is hard to take as an example of a horrible atrocity - > [@](#): > > Ahmad Nabhani, 23, as he crawled toward the border on Sunday evening, partly concealed in a dried river bed, an Israeli military spokeswoman said. She said he ignored several warnings to stop. > > …“My brother didn’t understand anything,” he said. “Sometimes you’d speak to him and he wouldn’t understand. It is like he wasn’t there.” [Cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/06/world/middleeast/gaza-israeli-forces-kill-palestinian-man.html?emc=tnt&tntemail0=y). So, crazy guy acts crazy. It’s too bad, but what are you gonna do? The other one is a bit more problematic. I am sorry to say that I am reluctant to take the Palestinians’ version of this as gospel. The source makes it sound as if the IDF is deliberately targeting children. I am wondering if there might not be more to the story than that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/64 "2012-11-16T20:49:11Z")
Erdogan’s response is not really new. He’s been ignoring the behavior of Muslim-headed governments since at least the last invasion of Gaza. He’s definitely not going to say anything in defense of Israel considering the demands he’s made since the _Mavi Marmara_. He does this for domestic consumption and I think to heal what I have come to believe is a real fragile ego. If Hamas ever makes him look like he’s not the big man then he’ll call for their demise. Hamas is not acting like a responsible government protecting its people. If it was, there would rarely be rocket attacks. Its making things worse for its people. The Arab governments will only criticize Israel because what could they possibly gain by criticizing Hamas? Still, they act irresponsibly if they criticize Israel without saying a word of Hamas because Hamas does not deserve support. They hold their people hostage. Although they do a lot of good for Gazans when the resources are available, they bound them to being slaughtered by Israelis. Israel is acting like a thug. The escalation is their fault. The rocket attacks that preceded this seemed to be fairly typical (judging from the biased, yet seemingly factual, **RedFury** source). They freaked out. They act irresponsibly by promoting policies that continue to fail despite having nearly all the power in the situation. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/65 "2012-11-16T20:56:38Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Israel is acting like a thug. The escalation is their fault. The rocket attacks that preceded this seemed to be fairly typical (judging from the biased, yet seemingly factual, **RedFury** source). They freaked out. Look, Martha, it’s the typical Hamas 4PM rocket attacks. Those Arabs, whattaya going to do? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/66 "2012-11-16T20:59:16Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Erdogan’s response is not really new. He’s been ignoring the behavior of Muslim-headed governments since at least the last invasion of Gaza. He’s definitely not going to say anything in defense of Israel considering the demands he’s made since the _Mavi Marmara_. He does this for domestic consumption and I think to heal what I have come to believe is a real fragile ego. If Hamas ever makes him look like he’s not the big man then he’ll call for their demise. > > Hamas is not acting like a responsible government protecting its people. If it was, there would rarely be rocket attacks. Its making things worse for its people. The Arab governments will only criticize Israel because what could they possibly gain by criticizing Hamas? Still, they act irresponsibly if they criticize Israel without saying a word of Hamas because Hamas does not deserve support. They hold their people hostage. Although they do a lot of good for Gazans when the resources are available, they bound them to being slaughtered by Israelis. > > Israel is acting like a thug. The escalation is their fault. The rocket attacks that preceded this seemed to be fairly typical (judging from the biased, yet seemingly factual, **RedFury** source). They freaked out. They act irresponsibly by promoting policies that continue to fail despite having nearly all the power in the situation. So, a country should put up with a little rocketing of its civilian population and do nothing, as long as it is “fairly typical”? Interestingly, the Turks have not taken that position with the Syrians. [http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/11/14/syria-turkey-border-air-strikes.html](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/11/14/syria-turkey-border-air-strikes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/67 "2012-11-16T21:01:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You would expect the Turks and Egyptians to react with a lot of harsh words. Both have no love for Israel (whether run by Bibi or not). The Turks have a major beef with the Israelis over the Cyprus natural gas deal, and that has driven relations between the two countries into the toilet for the last few years. I am sincerely sorry for this hijack: The Turkish relationship with Israel soured because of Operation Cast Lead (the handling of which was an attack on Erdogan’s ego more than anything else as far as Turkey is concerned). Events following exacerbated it, including the Cyprus natural gas deal, but this natural gas deal is vastly overshadowed by things like the Mavi Marmara. There was little in the way of problems between Israel and Turkey prior to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/68 "2012-11-16T21:03:09Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > Look, Martha, it’s the typical Hamas 4PM rocket attacks. Those Arabs, whattaya going to do? No kidding. I’m not clear on how the undoubted fact that rocket attacks and the like are “typical” for Hamas argues that Israel is at fault for not putting up with them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/69 "2012-11-16T21:06:13Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > Look, Martha, it’s the typical Hamas 4PM rocket attacks. Those Arabs, whattaya going to do? Please specify which of the Israeli policies of bombing, killing, and laying siege have saved them from the rocket attacks. > [@Malthus](#): > > So, a country should put up with a little rocketing of its civilian population and do nothing, as long as it is “fairly typical”? > > Interestingly, the Turks have not taken that position with the Syrians. > > [Turkey threatens retaliation if Syria violates airspace | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/11/14/syria-turkey-border-air-strikes.html) This thread is about the new escalation between Israel and Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/70 "2012-11-16T21:07:36Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The rocket attacks that preceded this seemed to be fairly typical (judging from the biased, yet seemingly factual, **RedFury** source). They freaked out. They act irresponsibly by promoting policies that continue to fail despite having nearly all the power in the situation. What do you consider a “typical” attack on civilian population? Please give me the number of missiles your country would accept being fired daily at their civilians, then we can discuss whether Hamas fire can be considered “typical” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/71 "2012-11-16T21:09:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No kidding. > > I’m not clear on how the undoubted fact that rocket attacks and the like are “typical” for Hamas argues that Israel is at fault for not putting up with them. > > Regards, > Shodan Why don’t you join **Poor Yorick** and demonstrate how slaughtering a bunch of Palestinians is going to solve “putting up with rocket attacks”. I keep reading about the rocket attacks, mortar strikes, and kidnappings since before Cast Lead, since after, since before this escalation, and I am sure I will reading of them for years to come. So yeah, they’ll be putting up with them for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/72 "2012-11-16T21:17:40Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > What do you consider a “typical” attack on civilian population? Please give me the number of missiles your country would accept being fired daily at their civilians, then we can discuss whether Hamas fire can be considered “typical” or not. You’re home city is being fired upon and your worried about the word typical? Well since you are: Those rockets are getting better, nothing your government is doing is solving the problem. Given the ineffectual policies of your government and the ineffectual policies of pretty much every government involved, I think you ought to decide for yourself what is typical because you’ll be living with it for years to come. I sincerely am sorry that you have to put with this ( **Alessan** as well). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/73 "2012-11-16T21:18:12Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why don’t you join **Poor Yorick** and demonstrate how slaughtering a bunch of Palestinians is going to solve “putting up with rocket attacks”. Obviously I wouldn’t guarantee that the Israeli military response is going to solve the problem once and for all, but I suspect it has a better chance of working than sitting back and doing nothing while Hamas kills Israelis. Hamas has no chance of victory in a straight military confrontation with Israel. Therefore they are taking their standard tack, which you and I agree is “typical”, which consists of killing enough Israelis to provoke a response, and then blame Israel for starting it. I wonder if Hamas is still hiding its rocket launcher in the middle of civilian targets so as to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties again. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/74 "2012-11-16T21:21:07Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Please specify which of the Israeli policies of bombing, killing, and laying siege have saved them from the rocket attacks. Which of the Hamas policies of rocketing civilians have saved them from Israeli attacks? No snark intended, but what would you suggest Israel do? From what I can tell, Hamas doesn’t seem real interested in a political discourse. I plugged “Israel Hamas Gaza timeline” into google to _try_ to find some source without an obvious vested interest. The closest I got was the [Chicago Tribune](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-14/news/sns-rt-us-palestinians-israel-hamas-timelinebre8ad1c3-20121114_1_hamas-militants-hamas-leader-israeli-missile). Their very, very cursory timeline starts at 2005. Starting June 23 of this year: > [@](#): > > June 23 - Israel says Hamas and other groups fire more than 150 rockets at it in a week. Retaliatory airstrikes kill at least 2 Palestinians > > Oct 8 - Hamas and other groups fire more than 55 rockets and mortars at southern Israel. At least one militant killed in Israeli airstrike. > > Nov 13 - Three Palestinian militants and at least four civilians die in new round of violence. More than 115 rockets fired into southern Israel. Israeli army says more than 760 rockets have hit Israel since the start of the year. > > Nov 14 - Israel kills Hamas’s military chief of staff; launch widespread air offensive. Warn of possible ground attack. I’m sure there are a lot more details that supporters from either side can cite, but from the outside looking in, it looks like Hamas, for reasons good or ill, launch rockets at Israel. Israel eventually responds. Lather, rinse, repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/75 "2012-11-16T21:24:08Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You’re home city is being fired upon and your worried about the word typical? Well since you are: Those rockets are getting better, nothing your government is doing is solving the problem. Given the ineffectual policies of your government and the ineffectual policies of pretty much every government involved, I think you ought to decide for yourself what is typical because you’ll be living with it for years to come. No, I _ **do not** _ understand why I need to or should “accept” this. Any other country would go to all-out war against an enemy and a territory firing upon them constantly. I think it is telling that what everyone would expect from their own government, they won’t tolerate when it’s “da joos” doing it :rolleyes: You haven’t answered my question: how many missiles a day would **you** agree to take? How long until you were hollering for your government, your army, the world, to **take out** the bastards shooting at you, and make sure they **stay** out? easy for you to tell me what I need to “accept” from the comfort of your home, innit? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I sincerely am sorry that you have to put with this ( **Alessan** as well). We’re not in the pit, so I’ll just let that slide. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/76 "2012-11-16T21:31:09Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am sincerely sorry for this hijack: The Turkish relationship with Israel soured because of Operation Cast Lead (the handling of which was an attack on Erdogan’s ego more than anything else as far as Turkey is concerned). Events following exacerbated it, including the Cyprus natural gas deal, but this natural gas deal is vastly overshadowed by things like the Mavi Marmara. > > There was little in the way of problems between Israel and Turkey prior to that point. The Cyprus deal is the _rational_ reason why the Turks and Israelis are at odds. It would exist even if Erdogan and Bibi did not, and even if Cast Lead and the Mavi Marmara never happened - the Turks and Israelis are bound to clash over natural gas, because both wish to control it. It’s an inevitable source of friction and, one suspects, that this (rational) friction explains more than Erdogan’s ego. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/77 "2012-11-16T21:35:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > This thread is about the new escalation between Israel and Hamas. This thread is at least in part about the reaction of other countries to the current situation. The reaction of Turkey is relevent to that, and hence the fact that Turkey is involved in a somewhat similar situation itself is also relevant. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/78 "2012-11-16T21:52:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So, a country should put up with a little rocketing of its civilian population and do nothing, as long as it is “fairly typical”? How come we never hear the query in reverse? How much ordnance\* should an occupied nation allow to be rained on them from air, land and sea before they are able to retaliate even if with their crudest means? Obviously, since they are _not allowed_ to become a nation by their very conquerors, each _retaliatory_ strike – no matter buy what group or individual – becomes automatically labeled by the Western Media as a “terrorist attack.” Meanwhile the nation-state in power is allowed to use force at will and any civilian death becomes ipso-facto “collateral damage.” What a bunch of Orwellian double-speak bullshit. \*And I daresay that Gazans have taken hundreds if not thousands more hits (never mind horrendous amounts of casualties) than the combined number of rockets/mortars launched _by them_. But see? No one _counts those_…:rolleyes: ETA:In short, who is allowed to legitimately resist and/or retaliate against Israel aggressions? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/79 "2012-11-16T21:54:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obviously I wouldn’t guarantee that the Israeli military response is going to solve the problem once and for all, but I suspect it has a better chance of working than sitting back and doing nothing while Hamas kills Israelis. > > Hamas has no chance of victory in a straight military confrontation with Israel. Therefore they are taking their standard tack, which you and I agree is “typical”, which consists of killing enough Israelis to provoke a response, and then blame Israel for starting it. I wonder if Hamas is still hiding its rocket launcher in the middle of civilian targets so as to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties again. > > Regards, > Shodan It does stand a better chance but the gains are only temporary. I think without recognizing Hamas’ right to rule that area and opening up trade to Gaza, most of the Gazan Palestinians will have nothing much to look forward to and the worst among them will have more reason to join Hamas and fire rockets instead of some antisocial activity that only harms their family and friends. > [@PoorYorick](#): > > Which of the Hamas policies of rocketing civilians have saved them from Israeli attacks? No snark intended, but what would you suggest Israel do? From what I can tell, Hamas doesn’t seem real interested in a political discourse. > > I plugged “Israel Hamas Gaza timeline” into google to _try_ to find some source without an obvious vested interest. The closest I got was the [Chicago Tribune](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-14/news/sns-rt-us-palestinians-israel-hamas-timelinebre8ad1c3-20121114_1_hamas-militants-hamas-leader-israeli-missile). Their very, very cursory timeline starts at 2005. Starting June 23 of this year…I’m sure there are a lot more details that supporters from either side can cite, but from the outside looking in, it looks like Hamas, for reasons good or ill, launch rockets at Israel. Israel eventually responds. Lather, rinse, repeat. End the embargo. Get the Palestinian minds on money, getting laid and educating their children. Treat the few that will inevitably fire rockets as the criminals they are with a sovereign government that will punish them. > [@Noone\_Special](#): > > No, I _ **do not** _ understand why I need to or should “accept” this. Any other country would go to all-out war against an enemy and a territory firing upon them constantly. > I think it is telling that what everyone would expect from their own government, they won’t tolerate when it’s “da joos” doing it :rolleyes: If it makes you feel better to think I am saying this because its “the joos” then feel free. > [@Noone\_Special](#): > > You haven’t answered my question: how many missiles a day would **you** agree to take? How long until you were hollering for your government, your army, the world, to **take out** the bastards shooting at you, and make sure they **stay** out? easy for you to tell me what I need to “accept” from the comfort of your home, innit? :rolleyes: My initial impulse would be to bomb the shit out whoever was firing crappy missiles at my country too. Yet you have ask yourself if this tit-for-tat relationship the Israeli government has with Hamas and the attempt to nearly completely isolate Gaza from the rest of the world is really going to stop any of this. I doubt it. Recognizing this, and if my government were as awful as yours, I would say about 50 - 100 a day. I would say that even if I lived next door to you in Tel Aviv. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/80 "2012-11-16T22:02:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > How come we never hear the query in reverse? How much ordnance\* should an occupied nation allow to be rained on them from air, land and sea before they are able to retaliate even if with their crudest means? Obviously, since they are _not allowed_ to become a nation by their very conquerors, each _retaliatory_ strike – no matter buy what group or individual – becomes automatically labeled by the Western Media as a “terrorist attack.” > > Meanwhile the nation-state in power is allowed to use force at will and any civilian death becomes ipso-facto “collateral damage.” What a bunch of Orwellian double-speak bullshit. > > \*And I daresay that Gazans have taken hundreds if not thousands more hits (never mind horrendous amounts of casualties) than the combined number of rockets/mortars launched _by them_. But see? No one _counts those_…:rolleyes: > > ETA:In short, who is allowed to legitimately resist and/or retaliate against Israel aggressions? Because there is no evidence that, absent Gazans shooting rockets at the Israelis or carrying out other sorts of attacks, the Israelis would give a damn about Gaza at this point. The Israelis want nothing from Gaza, and would be perfectly happy to ignore its existence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=5)