# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/81 "2012-11-16T22:07:28Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > End the embargo. Get the Palestinian minds on money, getting laid and educating their children. Treat the few that will inevitably fire rockets as the criminals they are with a sovereign government that will punish them. And when the Hamas government, whose _raison d’être_ is emnity with Israel, uses those open borders to import more missiles and fire them at you, you would do … ? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/82 "2012-11-16T22:18:09Z")
**Inbred Mm domesticus** , it’s late here (afte rmidnight) and I cannot muster the will to take this to the pit, so I will simply bid you have a good, _ **safe** _ night, wherever you are. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/83 "2012-11-16T22:19:57Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > It does stand a better chance but the gains are only temporary. I think without recognizing Hamas’ right to rule that area and opening up trade to Gaza, most of the Gazan Palestinians will have nothing much to look forward to and the worst among them will have more reason to join Hamas and fire rockets instead of some antisocial activity that only harms their family and friends. The Hamas leadership does not want peace with Israel. Their whole political existence, and the basis for most of their power, is the idea that they are going to form a partnership with the other radical Islamics in the region, drive out the Israelis, and take over the land. That’s part of the reason they hide their rocket launchers among civilians - they want as many casualties as they can blame on Israel, to radicalize their own people. Shooting rockets at people is a real bad way to get them to trade with you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/84 "2012-11-16T22:23:14Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] ETA:In short, who is allowed to legitimately resist and/or retaliate against Israel aggressions? [/QUOTE] You consider firing rockets randomly at civilians to provoke a military response (that will surly get some non-zero number of YOUR OWN CIVILIAN POPULATION KILLED) is legitimate resistance to ‘Israel aggression’? > [@](#): > > How come we never hear the query in reverse? How much ordnance\* should an occupied nation allow to be rained on them from air, land and sea before they are able to retaliate even if with their crudest means? Obviously, since they are not allowed to become a nation by their very conquerors, each retaliatory strike – no matter buy what group or individual – becomes automatically labeled by the Western Media as a “terrorist attack.” We hear the converse query all the time…on this board as well as everywhere else. Every time this happens (i.e. crazies in Gaza get a bug up their butts, fire off a load of missiles to provoke the Israels, Israel responds predictably by shooting back, some number of Palestinian civilians are killed, outrage from Red and the gang ensues…rinse and repeat) we hear about it. As for how much ordnance should the good workers and peasants in Gaza (or, more accurate their lunatic and frothing at the mouth theocratic fringe) be able to fire, the answer is…none. I mean, duh…you figure they SHOULD be shooting random rockets at civilians in a calculated fashion to provoke a response that will surly kill some of their own civilians but otherwise do absolutely dick towards rectifying this whole cluster fuck situation?? Just perpetuate the hatred and fighting? 😛 > [@](#): > > \*And I daresay that Gazans have taken hundreds if not thousands more hits (never mind horrendous amounts of casualties) than the combined number of rockets/mortars launched by them. But see? No one counts those… Well, YOU noticed didn’t you? So, it’s hardly no one who looks at those things. The reason you don’t ever get traction with your rants about this is simple though…people can see for themselves who initiated the fighting, and not many are going to be sympathetic to people who deliberately poke a bear in the nose with a stick and then put children between themselves and the bear knowing what the bear is likely to do…especially if poking the bear in the nose doesn’t nothing wrt the right to bear arms… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/85 "2012-11-16T22:23:23Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > \*And I daresay that Gazans have taken hundreds if not thousands more hits (never mind horrendous amounts of casualties) than the combined number of rockets/mortars launched _by them_. This has always seemed like a demented form of arithmetic to me. If you commit a violent act and open fire on responding police, they’re not expected to limit return fire to the exact number of bullets you send their way. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/86 "2012-11-16T22:28:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > And when the Hamas government, whose _raison d’être_ is emnity with Israel, uses those open borders to import more missiles and fire them at you, you would do … ? The embargo party motivates the _raison d’être_. I’m not sure that buying more and better missiles would be Hamas’ best strategy to Israel ending the embargo. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/87 "2012-11-16T22:32:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Because there is no evidence that, absent Gazans shooting rockets at the Israelis or carrying out other sorts of attacks, the Israelis would give a damn about Gaza at this point. The Israelis want nothing from Gaza, and would be perfectly happy to ignore its existence. You are funny! Because Israel hasn’t been occupying, oppressing, stealing land & resources, displacing and killing Palestinians for 60 years…especially after '67. No, they don’t care at all! Not much left to take anyway is there? **[Palestinian Loss of Land 1946-2010](http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/15217_4458116702897_777031389_n.jpg)** By the time they are ‘allowed’ to become a nation, they’ll be living in a shoebox. Size 5 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/88 "2012-11-16T22:34:58Z")
And that’s why firing off rockets at random at Israeli cities is the best solution to their problems, and why it’s unreasonable for Israel to respond to rocket attacks. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/89 "2012-11-16T22:42:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And that’s why firing off rockets at random at Israeli cities is the best solution to their problems, and why it’s unreasonable for Israel to respond to rocket attacks. Back to the “who started it” I see. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/90 "2012-11-16T22:46:44Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Back to the “who started it” I see. I’ve never made a “who started it” argument. I talked about your extremely misleading OP, and I commented on what appears to be an excuse for shooting rockets into cities. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/91 "2012-11-16T23:01:02Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > End the embargo. Get the Palestinian minds on money, getting laid … Given the extraordinary birth rate in Gaza, I don’t think this last item is a real concern. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/92 "2012-11-16T23:05:44Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > The Palestinians deserve every bad thing that happens to them and I’m being charitable in saying that. They work hard to achieve this status and they work at it every day… > > The Palestinians on the other hand are the gift that keeps on giving. An entire nation of douchebags yelling “come at me, bro!” towards the toughest mofo on the block. And for all their tough talk they cry like babies when they do get smacked. Suck it Gaza. You paid for the ticket. The above is of course mostly racist claptrap, but I do find your reference to them quite illuminating. For generations Israel’s leaders on both the left and the right repeatedly insisted that the Palestinians WEREN’T a nation or a people. In fact the current PM of Israel repeatedly insisted on that point while also claiming the Palestinians already had a state of their own, Jordan(which is a little like saying, "The Jews have a state of their own, it’s called New York). Perhaps had the Israelis not waited so many decades before recognizing them as a nation then we’d be in better shape. In fairness of course they same is true of the Palestinians though I have more sympathy for their refusal. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/93 "2012-11-16T23:23:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You are funny! Because Israel hasn’t been occupying, oppressing, stealing land & resources, displacing and killing Palestinians for 60 years…especially after '67. > > No, they don’t care at all! Not much left to take anyway is there? > > **[Palestinian Loss of Land 1946-2010](http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/15217_4458116702897_777031389_n.jpg)** > > By the time they are ‘allowed’ to become a nation, they’ll be living in a shoebox. Size 5 Red, I’m on my IPhone so I can’t tell what organization created that map, but any Palestinian from the 1960s would have been offended by it. It claims that Gaza and the West Bank were controlled by Palestinians prior to 1967, but they controlled by Egypt and Jordan, not the Palestinians. And while the government of Jordan treated those on the West Bank overall better than the Israelis and even offered then citizenship the idea the Egyptians were better, especially prior to the first Intifada is, at best, questionable. Look, I know you’re not my biggest fan, but honestly rather than using sources that all but the staunchest Palestinian supporters would reject and making inflammatory claims, I think you’d be better off pointing out that blockades are legally acts of war and that therefore there’s a war going on between Israel and Gaza. That’s why President Kennedy didn’t impose a “blockade” on Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis but instead placed Cuba “under quarantine”. You could also point out Israel used similar logic to justify its preemptive strike on Israel in 1967. Those would strike me as more persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/94 "2012-11-16T23:29:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So my son had his first air raid siren last night. It’s a rite of passage, I suppose; still, I wish he didn’t have to go through it at such a young age. > > It’s going to be a fun weekend. I’m really sorry to hear that. I hope you’re doing better. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/95 "2012-11-16T23:54:18Z")
Appreciate your concern, **Ibn** , but I’ll take care of both composing and sourcing my posts in whichever fashion I consider suitable. And as I told you before, I neither a fan nor a hater – you are simply pixels on my monitor. Mostly unconvincing ones, I’ll give you that. Good night. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/96 "2012-11-17T00:37:07Z")
Anyone wishing to read a lengthy historical explanation on the accuracy of the map mocked by **Ibn** can do so here: [**The Map: The Story of Palestinian Nationhood Thwarted After the League of Nations Recognized It**](http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/map-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html) > [@](#): > > **The map attracted so much ire and controversy not because it is inaccurate but because it clearly shows what has been done to the Palestinians, which the League of Nations had recognized as not far from achieving statehood in its Covenant. Their statehood and their territory has been taken from them, and they have been left stateless, without citizenship and therefore without basic civil and human rights. The map makes it easy to see this process. The map had to be stigmatized and made taboo. But even if that marginalization of an image could be accomplished, the squalid reality of Palestinian statelessness would remain, and the children of Gaza would still be being malnourished by the deliberate Israeli policy of blockading civilians. The map just points to a powerful reality; banishing the map does not change that reality…** Of course, if he still disagrees, he is more than welcome to take it up with Professor Cole. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/97 "2012-11-17T00:55:30Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Anyone wishing to read a lengthy historical explanation on the accuracy of the map mocked by **Ibn** can do so here: > > [**The Map: The Story of Palestinian Nationhood Thwarted After the League of Nations Recognized It**](http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/map-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html) There’s a rather obvious and gross omission in those maps. Specifically, the third; the West Bank was not “Palestinian Land” from 1948 to 1967. It was occupied by Jordan, which at the time seemed not at all concerned with Palestinian independence. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/98 "2012-11-17T00:55:46Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Anyone wishing to read a lengthy historical explanation on the accuracy of the map mocked by **Ibn** can do so here: > > [**The Map: The Story of Palestinian Nationhood Thwarted After the League of Nations Recognized It**](http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/map-story-of-palestinian-nationhood.html) > > Of course, if he still disagrees, he is more than welcome to take it up with Professor Cole. Juan Cole is about as objective as Martin Kramer and Daniel Pipes. Do you consider Martin Kramer or Daniel Pipes objective, reliable sources? Beyond that, are you seriously trying to argue that a map which purports that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank was Palestinian-controlled land prior to 1967? I ask because insisting that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were controlled and administered by Palestinians rather than the Egyptians is a jaw-droppingly ignorant claim right up there with Gerry Ford’s claim that “there is no communist domination of Poland and Czeckoslovakia”. You’re entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Anyone telling you that map is accurate is either a fool or they are trying to fool you. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/99 "2012-11-17T01:05:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There’s a rather obvious and gross omission in those maps. Specifically, the third; the West Bank was not “Palestinian Land” from 1948 to 1967. It was occupied by Jordan, which at the time seemed not at all concerned with Palestinian independence. Not to nitpick, but rather than “omission” I’d say “distortion”. The map claims that the Gaza Strip and Jordan were “Palestinian land” when they were in fact “Jordanian” and “Egyptian” land. When he posted it on his website, Professor Cole was rather clearly trying to deceive those that viewed it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/100 "2012-11-17T01:12:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Isn’t Israel about the size of Connecticut? New Jersey is the usual comparison. Similar population density, but I think Israel has about 1 million fewer people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=6)