# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/101 "2012-11-17T01:25:33Z")
Well, since Red can post an obviously biased link from Juan-y-boy, I figured I’d post [this](http://frontpagemag.com/2011/steven-plaut/juan-cole%E2%80%99s-map-of-lies/) one. The difference is I know mine is biased, while Red really seems to believe that his is the unbiased truth. As 'luci would say, shields up lefties, this is a right wing conservative website (but, if you do the same Google search I did, namely ‘debunking Juan Cole map’ you’ll get lots of hits): > [@](#): > > Juan Cole is the Richard P. Mitchell Professor of History. He claims to be a Middle East historian and expert. He has served as the president of the “Middle East Studies Association.” At least one scholar has accused him of being personally responsible for the intellectual bankruptcy plaguing Middle East studies. Cole is an anti-Israel and anti-American extremist, and his extremism prevented him from getting a job offer from Yale a few years back. He is probably best known for his professing beliefs in grand Jewish conspiracies. He tosses around the term “Zionofascists” when he means “Jews.” He led the pro-Saddam lobby and is a Hamas apologist. He loves to spread anti-Jewish blood libels. He is bosom buddies with Neo-Nazi anti-Semitic conspiracist nuts, like Justin Raimondo (who claims the Jews and not al-Qaeda were behind the 9-11 attacks on the US). > [@](#): > > The first frame is labeled “Palestinian and Jewish Land 1946.” It shows “Palestinian land” in green comprising more than 90% of “Palestine” (defined as the area later forming Israel, the West Bank and Gaza). Most of this “Palestinian” land was “Palestinian” only in the sense that it was public land owned by the British mandatory government of “Palestine.” > [@](#): > > The second frame shows the UN partition plan 1947, under which roughly equal slices of land in Mandatory Palestine were assigned to a proposed Jewish state and a proposed Palestinian Arab state. Unwittingly, the map prepared by Cole makes the Israeli case. Readers might want to ask of Cole and his friends embarrassing questions, such as why that Arab Palestinian state never arose. After all, the Jews accepted the compromise proposal. The answer that Cole does not want you to know is that the Arab states invaded the territory militarily and gobbled up most of the what had been earmarked for a Palestinian state. Readers might also wonder how come half the segment of Western Palestine that had been reserved for the Jews after Transjordan had been truncated from Palestine was being offered to the Arabs. > [@](#): > > The Big Lie is most visibly and viciously concentrated in Cole’s first frame. After World War I, all of Western Palestine was governed by Britain under a Mandate granted to it by the League of Nations. Its mandate was to develop the area as a Jewish homeland. The eastern part of Palestine was truncated and illegally turned by Britain into the independent Arab kingdom of Transjordan. The rump segment of Palestine was reserved for the Jews. None of this was earmarked for creation of yet another Arab state. The bulk of land within the Palestinian Mandate was state-owned land, governed by the British Mandatory government. It had also been state-owned land previously under the Ottoman imperial government, before Britain liberated “Palestine” from the Turks. [Before World War I, land in Palestine was owned by the Ottoman state and a feudalistic class of absentee landlords. The few “Palestinian” Arabs who lived in the country at the time seldom owned any land. They farmed it as sharecroppers.] > [@](#): > > The large increase in Jewish land ownership between the late 1800s and 1948 was due to this process of land acquisition by means of Zionist purchases. Swaths of lands were also purchased by Jews in Syria and Transjordan. They were later stolen by the respective Arab governments, a little matter about which the “anti-apartheid” poseurs and Hillary Clinton have never had much to say. The bulk of the land in Western “Palestine,” including almost the entire Negev in Israel’s south, was state-owned during the British mandatory period. If Cole and Sullivan had an ounce of integrity, they would have identified public lands as precisely that. > [@](#): > > Then we have parts of the Gaza Strip being shown on the Cole map as “Israeli land.” Never mind that there is not a single Israeli anywhere in the Gaza Strip, ever since Israel – somewhat foolishly – turned the entire area over to the Hamas years ago. In the West Bank, Cole shows large swaths of “Palestinian land.” What he means of course is land on which Arabs live today. There are also swaths of land there on which Jews live. If the very fact of Arabs living on those lands turns them into “Palestinian lands,” then most of the American Southwest is Mexico. > [@](#): > > Cole actually took the pseudo-map – as is – from a Bash-the-Jews web site operating out of Leeds, English. This “borrowing” shows the reliability of Cole’s academic sources and scholarship. A student of mine who did the same would be brought up on disciplinary charges. The “Leeds Palestine Solidarity Campaign” is a pro-jihad pro-terrorist tiny group promoting boycotts of Israel. It reprints the usual Islamofascist propaganda and it links itself to Aljazeera, Osama bin Laden’s favorite news outlet. In its statement of purpose it lists battling the “Zionist nature” of Israel as one of its goals. It is not clear who prepared the map for the Leeds bigots, but it was obviously not anyone with any interest in facts. This is evidently why it appealed to Juan Cole. [Here](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/andrew-sullivan-revises-history-again/37401/) is a shorter debunking (this time of Andrew Sullivan using the same maps) on the Atlantic. I post this not in any hope of changing Red’s mind, but simply to give readers of this thread another perspective. I chose the one on [Frontpagemag.com](http://Frontpagemag.com) because I felt it had the same level of objectivity and steely eyed unbiased view as Red’s link did…but, at least they were verbose. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/102 "2012-11-17T01:57:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not to nitpick, but rather than “omission” I’d say “distortion”. > > The map claims that the Gaza Strip and Jordan were “Palestinian land” when they were in fact “Jordanian” and “Egyptian” land. > > When he posted it on his website, Professor Cole was rather clearly trying to deceive those that viewed it. Yep, it’s a deliberate and rather sad (as it relies on a reader to be uninformed and ignorant) attempt at deception. Cole wasn’t simply wrong, but instead he rather deliberately set out to make an impression of a gradual and sustained land grab by the Israeli’s, viciously disenfranchising the poor Palestinians from their rightful lands. Take the first slide…on the surface, it looks like the Palestinians controlled _Monty Python voiceover_ Huge Tracts of Land!! The reality is that most of the green area was public lands that were controlled by the British during that period, with very little of it being privately owned by ‘Palestinians’. I assume that the white areas are vaguely accurate, but at a guess if you showed the actual lands owned privately by Palestinians (Arab Palestinians) you’d have a similar distribution between green and white…which wouldn’t do at all for what Juan-y-boy wanted his readers to think The second slide of course shows the proposed UN partition plan (though Jerusalem was supposed to be an open or international city controlled by neither the proposed Israel or proposed Palestine), which is ironic and hilarious, though I’d say both were lost on Juan’s readers, who probably don’t realize it wasn’t a map about land ownership but about a proposal to equatable partition part of the mandate for both Jews and non-Jews, and that the Jews accepted the plan while the Palestinians, well, didn’t. Much penis ensued. The third map, as noted by other posters, is ridiculous since Egypt controlled the territory in Gaza during the time frame noted and Jordan had annexed the West Bank region…and neither had even the first thought in their head about giving up that land for a possible Palestinian homeland…another fact lost on Juan’s READERS, no doubt, though I’m sure the Juan-anator knew this fact perfectly well. But it’s more dramatic if you show the slides and gloss over the facts. The last map is, of course, the most brilliant part of this whole thing, as it takes the fact that Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza, parts of the West Bank, the Sinai and Southern Lebanon, and instead of portraying this in a positive light actually manages to incorporate that into the ‘poor Palestinians losing their land to the vicious Jews steadily over time…and where, oh where will this injustice end!!!’ theme. It’s brilliant, in a slimy dog sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/103 "2012-11-17T02:28:32Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > Look, Martha, it’s the typical Hamas 4PM rocket attacks. Those Arabs, whattaya going to do? I always like to hope people can’t actually hear what they’re saying when they say things like what this is in response to. The alternative is too depressing. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Recognizing this, and if my government were as awful as yours, I would say about 50 - 100 a day. I would say that even if I lived next door to you in Tel Aviv. But of course they often do. Perhaps you’d like to enlighten us as to what city it is that you live in so we can arrange to have 50-100 rockets a day land on it. I somehow doubt the veracity of your statement would actually stand up. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/104 "2012-11-17T02:51:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There’s a rather obvious and gross omission in those maps. Specifically, the third; the West Bank was not “Palestinian Land” from 1948 to 1967. It was occupied by Jordan, which at the time seemed not at all concerned with Palestinian independence. Nope, no omission there. Sorry. It was occupied but Jordan’s rule over the territory was never recognized outside of the United Kingdom. Thus it remained “Palestinian Land.” At the end of the day, all those maps show is how much territory Israel has taken with complete impunity over the original partition agreement – and I maintain that they are factually correct. In fact, use your favorite mapping program and look at the accuracy of the fourth vis-a-vis Israel’s settlements today. Bottom line. A Zionist land-grab with complete impunity which continues to this day. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/105 "2012-11-17T02:55:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > New Jersey is the usual comparison. Similar population density, but I think Israel has about 1 million fewer people. Could New Jersey take Israel in a war? No outside help. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/106 "2012-11-17T03:01:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Nope, no omission there. Sorry. It was occupied but Jordan’s rule over the territory was never recognized outside of the United Kingdom. Thus it remained “Palestinian Land.” So then the map is wrong by claiming after 1967 that the land was no longer Palestinian land because no one recognized Israel’s rule of Gaza and the West Bank? Based on the logic you just posted it was. Also, I notice that you completely ignored that Gaza was controlled and administered by Egypt and that the Gazans were denied any kind of independence or even allowed to leave when under Nasser’s control. Were you unaware that Gaza was controlled by Egypt between 1948-1967, that the Palestinians were denied any independence or autonomy? If you were aware of that then why did you make such a foolish mistake as to claim that the map which claims that Gaza was “Palestinian land” was correct? BTW, what’s your opinion of La Reqonquista? That was a far more blatant land grab, created far more refugees and those who engaged in it were far more ruthless then the Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/107 "2012-11-17T03:09:56Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Could New Jersey take Israel in a war? No outside help. I keep deleting responses to this post. The lack of jug handles on the battlefield would mean Jerseyans would be at a disadvantage. OTOH, they have Snookie- a powerful weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/108 "2012-11-17T03:13:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > BTW, what’s your opinion of La Reqonquista? That was a far more blatant land grab, created far more refugees and those who engaged in it were far more ruthless then the Israelis. I’m going to apologize for this comment here. It was extremely obnoxious of me to say. Red, I apologize for making it. Would one of the mods please edit that out of my post and then delete this one. I’m sorry I missed the edit window. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/109 "2012-11-17T03:14:47Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I keep deleting responses to this post. > > The lack of jug handles on the battlefield would mean Jerseyans would be at a disadvantage. > > OTOH, they have Snookie- a powerful weapon. They’d have a problem telling each other apart. They look alike. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/110 "2012-11-17T03:15:28Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Nope, no omission there. Sorry. It was occupied but Jordan’s rule over the territory was never recognized outside of the United Kingdom. Thus it remained “Palestinian Land.” [/QUOTE] So, recognition by outside nations is the key then, yes? Hm…I wonder. How much of the current territory controlled by Israel is recognized as being Israeli territory by outside nations, and how much of it is recognized as being Palestinian by outside nations. What do you think, Red…shall we use this criteria to decide? Tell you what…we wont’ count the UK vote either way, since that’s obviously a problem for you… You didn’t mention Gaza though…possibly because more than just the UK recognized Egyptian control of that territory at the time, ehe? > [@](#): > > At the end of the day, all those maps show is how much territory Israel has taken with complete impunity over the original partition agreement – and I maintain that they are factually correct. Maintain away, though it’s pretty funny to watch you try and justify them by shifting the goal posts and even the field of play all about in an effort to have them say what you want them to say. 😛 > [@](#): > > In fact, use your favorite mapping program and look at the accuracy of the fourth vis-a-vis Israel’s settlements today. The distortion in the 4th map is in what it attempts to portray vis-a-vis the other 3. > [@](#): > > Bottom line. A Zionist land-grab with complete impunity which continues to this day. Probably why the Egyptians control the Sinai again, there are Palestinians in control of Gaza and parts of the West Bank, southern Lebanon has been given back …it’s all part of a Jewish plot to steal the entire region by giving territory back to their enemies from the negotiating table instead of on the field of battle. Damn sneaky Jews… ---
**Author:** ![Danja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Danja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danja)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/111 "2012-11-17T04:02:01Z")
So CNN has reported that rockets have been fired toward Jerusalem. What happens if the militants accidentally hit the Dome of the Rock? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/112 "2012-11-17T04:16:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Cyprus deal is the _rational_ reason why the Turks and Israelis are at odds. It would exist even if Erdogan and Bibi did not, and even if Cast Lead and the Mavi Marmara never happened - the Turks and Israelis are bound to clash over natural gas, because both wish to control it. It’s an inevitable source of friction and, one suspects, that this (rational) friction explains more than Erdogan’s ego. I guess if Operation Cast Lead never happened and Erdogan never felt insulted by it we could know for sure. > [@Malthus](#): > > This thread is at least in part about the reaction of other countries to the current situation. > > The reaction of Turkey is relevent to that, and hence the fact that Turkey is involved in a somewhat similar situation itself is also relevant. Only due to the fact that ordinance passes over the border between Turkey and Syria is there a similarity. > [@Malthus](#): > > And when the Hamas government, whose _raison d’être_ is emnity with Israel, uses those open borders to import more missiles and fire them at you, you would do … ? Why did the PLO change its attitude? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/113 "2012-11-17T04:51:37Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Only due to the fact that ordinance passes over the border between Turkey and Syria is there a similarity. Erdogan very strongly and enthusiastically supported Turkey’s invasion of the Kurdish region of Iraq in reaction to attacks from members of the PKK in Northern Iraq. I’m a Turcophile and felt the incursion was justified and usually have more sympathy for the Turks then the Israelis, but the PKK always went after Turkish military units rather than going after civilians the way Hamas was and the PKK didn’t control the Kurdish section of Iraq. In fact, it would be interesting to find out how many of the people venting about Israel’s current actions were furious at the actions of a NATO member violating the sovereignty of a democratic nation. I wasn’t on the Dope when this happened, but I believe(apologies if I’m wrong) you were. Would you mind linking those of us not on the Dope when it happened to some threads of Dopers ripping into Turkey for invading Northern Iraq and brutally violating the sovereignty of a Democratic nation and killing civilians to go after the PKK? If you weren’t upset by Turkey engaging in such actions while clearly not being happy with what Israel is doing, perhaps you can explain to us what would seem to most reasonable people intellectual inconsistency. Thanks. > [@](#): > > Why did the PLO change its attitude? The PLO? How 1980s. Are you referring to Al Fatah and/or the PNA? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/114 "2012-11-17T05:02:43Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why did the PLO change its attitude? Anyway, if you’re referring Arafat and his cronies the answer is several reasons. The main one being that he needed to remain relevant and gain some international support as Hamas started to gain more support than the organization he always insisted was “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” and following his decision to support Saddam in the first Gulf War, the various Arab nations had cut off his cash flow and he and his organization were losing influence and power. As Thomas Friedman commented in the abridged version of From Beirut to Jerusalem commented, “When Rabin reached his hand out to Arafat, he was reaching his hand out to a drowning man”. That is of course if you take Arafat’s claims to have moderated his stance at face value, which many, particularly after he destroyed Israel’s Labour government at Camp David and rejected the best offer the Palestinians were ever given, doubt. So far, Hamas has never faced any comparable pressure and unlike Arafat, they have principals which they believe in sticking to. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/115 "2012-11-17T05:16:16Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Nope, no omission there. Sorry. It was occupied but Jordan’s rule over the territory was never recognized outside of the United Kingdom. Thus it remained “Palestinian Land.” That’s nice, but the fact remains that the manner in which the maps are presented is deliberately misleading and you know it. Let’s put the horse before the cart for once; the problems in the Middle East will begin to be solved when **all** the Arab states, and the authority governing the Palestinians, recognize the rights of Israel to exist. Until then no peace is logically possible. Israel has made concessions in the past, and they have never gotten anything for it but more attacks. You can’t be at peace with people whose stated mission is to wage endless war on you until your destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/116 "2012-11-17T06:20:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Erdogan very strongly and enthusiastically supported Turkey’s invasion of the Kurdish region of Iraq in reaction to attacks from members of the PKK in Northern Iraq. > > I’m a Turcophile and felt the incursion was justified and usually have more sympathy for the Turks then the Israelis, but the PKK always went after Turkish military units rather than going after civilians the way Hamas was and the PKK didn’t control the Kurdish section of Iraq. > > In fact, it would be interesting to find out how many of the people venting about Israel’s current actions were furious at the actions of a NATO member violating the sovereignty of a democratic nation. > > I wasn’t on the Dope when this happened, but I believe(apologies if I’m wrong) you were. > > Would you mind linking those of us not on the Dope when it happened to some threads of Dopers ripping into Turkey for invading Northern Iraq and brutally violating the sovereignty of a Democratic nation and killing civilians to go after the PKK? > > If you weren’t upset by Turkey engaging in such actions while clearly not being happy with what Israel is doing, perhaps you can explain to us what would seem to most reasonable people intellectual inconsistency. > > Thanks. I don’t think the Turkish government’s policies regarding the PKK and Kurds in general are effective in gaining them peace. Addressing their legitimate concerns without strings and without reversing course because right-wing nationalists get all uptight is not the way to win peace. Also there is no points for intellectual consistency when you try to be consistent in superficially similar circumstances: 1. The Kurds are Turkish citizens, 2. the PKK is made of Turkish citizenry residing on foreign soil, 3. the Kurds have a say in the government that is shitting on them, 4. the PKK regularly invades Turkish territory and kills their soldiers (100s per year in this escalating environment), 5. Turkey has good relations with the Kurdistan Regional Government, 6. Northern Iraq is not an overpopulated economic and social hellhole, 7. How many civilians were slaughtered during the incursion? None at all. I am sure I could find dozens more dissimilarities but I’ve already wasted plenty of time on the least most important aspect of comparing Turkish/Kurdish conflicts to Israel/Hamas conflicts: proof of my intellectual consistency. Anyway, my original post condemned the ineffectual actions of Hamas, the Arab governments, Turkey, and Israel in regards to Gaza. If all the actors, particularly Israel and Hamas continue their poor governance and thuggish behavior then its reasonable to expect that rocket attacks should become part of the weather report. I didn’t say it was right and would never start a thread supporting Hamas but you have to accept facts if you hope to manipulate a situation to your benefit. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The PLO? > > How 1980s. Are you referring to Al Fatah and/or the PNA? Whichever is the terrorist organization that eventually recognized Israel’s right to exist. The point was that people change when the circumstances change. I couldn’t give a shit about most of the history to be honest nor is it important in recognizing that collective punishment on a group of people for the behavior of a brutal subset of its population is effective. Although punishment certainly feels good and seems justified. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/117 "2012-11-17T06:31:01Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I don’t think the Turkish government’s policies regarding the PKK and Kurds in general are effective in gaining them peace. Addressing their legitimate concerns without strings and without reversing course because right-wing nationalists get all uptight is not the way to win peace. > > Also there is no points for intellectual consistency when you try to be consistent in superficially similar circumstances: > > 1. The Kurds are Turkish citizens, > 2. the PKK is made of Turkish citizenry residing on foreign soil, > 3. the Kurds have a say in the government that is shitting on them, > 4. the PKK regularly invades Turkish territory and kills their soldiers (100s per year in this escalating environment), > 5. Turkey has good relations with the Kurdistan Regional Government, > 6. Northern Iraq is not an overpopulated economic and social hellhole, > 7. How many civilians were slaughtered during the incursion? None at all. > I am sure I could find dozens more dissimilarities but I’ve already wasted plenty of time on the least most important aspect of comparing Turkish/Kurdish conflicts to Israel/Hamas conflicts: proof of my intellectual consistency. With all due respect, what the fuck are you talking about and where are you getting your information from? Who is the idiot who told you that the PKK members in Norther Iraq were Turkish citizens? Also, who is the asshole that told you that he Kurds of Northern Iraq were Turkish citizens? Also, you’re now claiming that no civilians were killed when Turkey decided to invade Northern Iraq. Where did you hear such claptrap? Hell, I supported Turkey’s invasion and I don’t remember any Turks being moronic enough as to claim that their bombing and invasion didn’t kill any civilians. Please tell us where you’re getting your information from? Also, are you honestly going to stick by your claim that when Turkey invaded Iraq they did so without killing any civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/118 "2012-11-17T06:37:37Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Whichever is the terrorist organization that eventually recognized Israel’s right to exist. Oh God, I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. You’re confessing that you don’t know the difference between Al-Fatah, the PNA, and the PLO? Respectfully, if you don’t know the difference then why the fuck do you have such strong opinions about the subject? Also, please explain why the PNA is a, to use your words, a “terrorist organization”? Why do you think they are one? > [@](#): > > I couldn’t give a shit about most of the history to be honest Thank you for having the courage to admit you’re shooting your mouth off about a subject you’re completely ignorant about. That takes a tremendous amount of courage. I’m being sincere. Most people don’t have the balls to do so. > [@](#): > > nor is it important in recognizing that collective punishment on a group of people for the behavior of a brutal subset of its population is effective. Although punishment certainly feels good and seems justified. Hmm… How familiar are you with the recent history of Cyprus? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/119 "2012-11-17T06:43:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > With all due respect, what the fuck are you talking about and where are you getting your information from? > > Who is the idiot who told you that the PKK members in Norther Iraq were Turkish citizens? > > Also, who is the asshole that told you that he Kurds of Northern Iraq were Turkish citizens? > > Also, you’re now claiming that no civilians were killed when Turkey decided to invade Northern Iraq. Where did you hear such claptrap? > > Hell, I supported Turkey’s invasion and I don’t remember any Turks being moronic enough as to claim that their bombing and invasion didn’t kill any civilians. > > Please tell us where you’re getting your information from? > > Also, are you honestly going to stick by your claim that when Turkey invaded Iraq they did so without killing any civilians? Provide cites, in a new thread and don’t waste too much time finding cites that do not exist. I don’t want you to waste too much time; you clearly do not know what you are talking about. You also misread one of my points. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/120 "2012-11-17T07:02:12Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Provide cites, in a new thread and don’t waste too much time finding cites that do not exist. I don’t want you to waste too much time; you clearly do not know what you are talking about. You also misread one of my points. Ok, so you’re honestly trying to argue that the Kurds living in Northern Iraq were actually Turkish citizens? And you have the balls to claim that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Please provide a single reliable cite to back your moronic claim that the Kurds living in Northern Iraq were Turkish citizens? I have to admit I’m literally laughing as I’m typing this. Have you ever met any Kurds? Are you under the impression that the Kurds only lived in Turkey? That they don’t also live in Syria, Iraq, and Turkey? That “Kurdistan” doesn’t straddle Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran? Good lord! Have you ever even visited the Middle East or do you just make assumptions based on CNN and maybe some posts on a website you frequent? I’m sorry, but again, I nearly pissed myself laughing at your demand that I provide a “cite” that the Kurds of Northern Iraq weren’t Turkish citizens. Are you now going to demand I provide “cites” that residents of Dublin and South Boston aren’t British citizens? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=7)