# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/121 "2012-11-17T07:07:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh God, I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. > > You’re confessing that you don’t know the difference between Al-Fatah, the PNA, and the PLO? I do know the difference, I just get a little tired of nitpicking the details. The important point is that organizations (I think one is called Jordan, and another is Egypt) have been in bloodthirsty conflict with Israel and denied they have a right to exist yet now they do. I didn’t think the PNA existed before 1992/93 and maybe Israel’s right to exist was only via the PNA and has nothing to with the PLO or Fatah. Regardless, there was change from denying their right to exist to accepting the obvious; the change driven by people who have led all this organizations. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, if you don’t know the difference then why the fuck do you have such strong opinions about the subject? Because I live in the USA. Do you have any clue at all how often Israel is brought up in the news and in the politics here? I want to hear about Israel and the Palestinians about as often as I hear about Senegal. I think we need to concentrate on other parts of the world. I think we definitely need to promote good relations with Arabs and then maybe Iran. Let this stupid conflict sit; it’s not going anywhere. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hmm… How familiar are you with the recent history of Cyprus? They’re in the EU and they recently found some natural gas. Northern Cyprus is popular among Turks as a gambling destination I think. I guess you are referring to some other sideshow? Back to my central point: Middle East, from East of the Bosphorus to Iran, South to the Gulf States and West to Northern Africa - a huge mass of ineffectual policies toward the Israel/Hamas conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/122 "2012-11-17T07:18:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, so you’re honestly trying to argue that the Kurds living in Northern Iraq were actually Turkish citizens? > > And you have the balls to claim that I don’t know what I’m talking about. > > Please provide a single reliable cite to back your moronic claim that the Kurds living in Northern Iraq were Turkish citizens? > > I have to admit I’m literally laughing as I’m typing this. > > Have you ever met any Kurds? > > Are you under the impression that the Kurds only lived in Turkey? > > That they don’t also live in Syria, Iraq, and Turkey? > > That “Kurdistan” doesn’t straddle Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran? > > Good lord! > > Have you ever even visited the Middle East or do you just make assumptions based on CNN and maybe some posts on a website you frequent? > > I’m sorry, but again, I nearly pissed myself laughing at your demand that I provide a “cite” that the Kurds of Northern Iraq weren’t Turkish citizens. > > Are you now going to demand I provide “cites” that residents of Dublin and South Boston aren’t British citizens? Your continued misreading of my post is entertaining, but it’s also insulting. I recommend you tone it down and just take a minute to reread what I wrote. Or point to where you think I said whatever it is you think I said. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/123 "2012-11-17T07:24:41Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Your continued misreading of my post is entertaining, but it’s also insulting. I recommend you tone it down and just take a minute to reread what I wrote. Or point to where you think I said whatever it is you think I said. You wrote “the PKK is made of Turkish citizenry residing on foreign soil”. Is this what you really believe? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/124 "2012-11-17T07:30:20Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I do know the difference, I just get a little tired of nitpicking the details. Then why did you say: > [@](#): > > **Inbred Mm domesticus** > Whichever is the terrorist organization that eventually recognized Israel’s right to exist. Please explain what made you decide that the PNA is a terrorist organization or did you have some other group in mind when you made such a hot-tempered statement? If so, what organization are you classifying as a “terrorist group” and why? > [@](#): > > **Inbred Mm domesticus** > I didn’t think the PNA existed before 1992/93 and maybe Israel’s right to exist was only via the PNA and has nothing to with the PLO or Fatah. Regardless, there was change from denying their right to exist to accepting the obvious; the change driven by people who have led all this organizations. Hmm… this comment suggest dramatically less confidence in your understanding of the situation then previous comments you’ve made. Anyway, I already pointed out why in post 114. > [@](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** > > Anyway, if you’re referring Arafat and his cronies the answer is several reasons. > > The main one being that he needed to remain relevant and gain some international support as Hamas started to gain more support than the organization he always insisted was “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” and following his decision to support Saddam in the first Gulf War, the various Arab nations had cut off his cash flow and he and his organization were losing influence and power. > > As Thomas Friedman commented in the abridged version of From Beirut to Jerusalem commented, “When Rabin reached his hand out to Arafat, he was reaching his hand out to a drowning man”. > > That is of course if you take Arafat’s claims to have moderated his stance at face value, which many, particularly after he destroyed Israel’s Labour government at Camp David and rejected the best offer the Palestinians were ever given, doubt. > > So far, Hamas has never faced any comparable pressure and unlike Arafat, they have principals which they believe in sticking to. > [@](#): > > **Inbred Mm domesticus** > They’re in the EU and they recently found some natural gas. Northern Cyprus is popular among Turks as a gambling destination I think. I guess you are referring to some other sideshow? Oh Good lord!? Are you seriously confessing you know nothing of Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus,it’s ethnci cleansing of the ethnic Greeks living in Northern Cyprus and it’s importing of large numbers of Turkish settlers? > [@](#): > > **Inbred Mm domesticus** > Because I live in the USA. So, Turkey is a NATO member and huge ally. Why do you get far more agitated and hot and bothered by actions taken by Israel than by Turks? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/125 "2012-11-17T07:32:46Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Your continued misreading of my post is entertaining, but it’s also insulting. I recommend you tone it down and just take a minute to reread what I wrote. Or point to where you think I said whatever it is you think I said. You made the assertion that “the PKK is made of Turkish citizenry residing on foreign soil”. Is that what you actually believe? If so, please provide a cite for your assertion that the Kurds living in Northern Iraq were Turkish citizens or withdraw your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/126 "2012-11-17T08:16:15Z")
What exactly is your problem with that statement? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/127 "2012-11-17T14:06:55Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > What exactly is your problem with that statement? Because the Kurds living in Northern Iraq, Syria and Iran aren’t Turkish citizens. Why would they be? ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/128 "2012-11-17T15:31:32Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I was looking at the CNN map today and it struck me as to how _tiny_ the whole place is. A rocket with 70 km range can strike TelAviv from Gaza. I have to drive that far just to get to court. Seriously the place absolutely dima-fucking-nutive. The population density of Gaza strip is [~4750 people per square km](http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=21000&c=gz&l=en) - very very high, in top 5 countries by pop. density. And yet the fertility rate is very high - [4.57 children per female](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html?countryName=Gaza%20Strip&countryCode=gz®ionCode=mde&rank=30#gz). the conflict with Israel may grow even more if they do not control their birth rate. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/129 "2012-11-17T15:58:22Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > The population density of Gaza strip is [~4750 people per square km](http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=21000&c=gz&l=en) - very very high, in top 5 countries by pop. density. And yet the fertility rate is very high - [4.57 children per female](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html?countryName=Gaza%20Strip&countryCode=gz®ionCode=mde&rank=30#gz). > the conflict with Israel may grow even more if they do not control their birth rate. Gaza is a _city_ not a country so the analogy is hardly appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/130 "2012-11-17T16:26:03Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Gaza is a _city_ not a country so the analogy is hardly appropriate. There is a Gaza City and a territory called Gaza. Gaza City does not encompass the entire territory. The Gaza Strip is heavily populated but it isn’t one giant city. You can see that just looking at Google Maps. Some of it is actually quite nice; you only see eastern Gaza City in rubble on the news when this crap flares up, but Gaza has parks and beaches and little towns and stuff, too. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/131 "2012-11-17T16:33:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Because the Kurds living in Northern Iraq, Syria and Iran aren’t Turkish citizens. > > Why would they be? The PKK is primarily recruited from ethnic Kurd citizens of Turkey. It’s why the mayor of Diyarbakir is quoted as saying this in a recent news article on his criticism of Erdogan; [Kurdish mayor in Turkey confronts PM Erdogan](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/13/us-turkey-kurds-baydemir-idUSBRE8AC0FI20121113): > [@](#): > > “The government has shut all legal, democratic channels. This sends Kurds the message: ‘Head to the mountains,’” Baydemir says, referring to PKK camps in northern Iraq and the highlands of southeastern Turkey where it fights Turkish soldiers. The PKK, a militant organization composed primarily of Kurds from Turkey and Kurds displaced from Turkey into Europe, utilizes the mountains along the border to hideout and stage attacks inside Turkey. So trying to relate this to Hamas and Israel is only superficially legitimate. The similarities are that both Hamas and PKK are widely regarded as terrorists and that a border is involved in fighting them by the governments of Israel and Turkey. Fairly superficial, although I would argue that the most effective remedy for both problems is to treat the leaders of these organizations as true political figures and attempt to negotiate and find solutions to the most obvious problems. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/132 "2012-11-17T17:29:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There is a Gaza City and a territory called Gaza. Gaza City does not encompass the entire territory. > > The Gaza Strip is heavily populated but it isn’t one giant city. You can see that just looking at Google Maps. Some of it is actually quite nice; you only see eastern Gaza City in rubble on the news when this crap flares up, but Gaza has parks and beaches and little towns and stuff, too. Nevertheless the point still stands, the Gaza Strip is Gaza City and its outlying regions and therefore population density wise it cannot be compared to a country. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/133 "2012-11-17T18:23:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Nevertheless the point still stands, the Gaza Strip is Gaza City and its outlying regions and therefore population density wise it cannot be compared to a country. I think it can be because 1. it is a land which has split from Palestinian National Authority and is being governed separately: [Occupied Palestinian territories - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories) > [@](#): > > The Palestinian territories or occupied Palestinian territories (OPT or oPt) comprise the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. In 1993, following the Oslo Accords, parts of the territories politically came under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian National Authority. **In 2007, the Gaza Strip violently split from the Palestinian Authority, governing the area of Gaza independently since. Israel still exercises full military control and Israeli civil control over 61% of the West Bank (Area C).** 1. It has well defined boundary with Israel and Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/134 "2012-11-17T18:32:22Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > The population density of Gaza strip is [~4750 people per square km](http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=21000&c=gz&l=en) - very very high, in top 5 countries by pop. density. And yet the fertility rate is very high - [4.57 children per female](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html?countryName=Gaza%20Strip&countryCode=gz®ionCode=mde&rank=30#gz). > the conflict with Israel may grow even more if they do not control their birth rate. Don’t know about the size of Gaza, but their fertility rate (and population size) is probably exaggerated for propaganda and aid purposes. As far as the conflict with Israel goes, they just need to stop attacking Israel and the conflict will end. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/135 "2012-11-17T18:44:44Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > As far as the conflict with Israel goes, they just need to stop attacking Israel and the conflict will end. why don’t the rest of the middle eastern nations absorb all Palestinian people in ratio of their populations. they have so much land and they also talk about ‘ummah’ , so much concern about Palestinians and they could easily absorb all Palestinians. The jews have the right to have atleast a tiny nation like Israel for them. Muslims have so many nations already. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/136 "2012-11-17T18:56:22Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > why don’t the rest of the middle eastern nations absorb all Palestinian people in ratio of their populations. Lol, forget about middle eastern nations – even Gaza will not absorb anyone into its population. Even the proposed “Palestinian State” on the West Bank will not absorb anyone. You might think that Gaza would open its doors to the folks living in refugee camps in Lebabon or Jordan, many of whom fled Gaza itself in the late 60s. But they don’t do so. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/137 "2012-11-17T19:00:04Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > why don’t the rest of the middle eastern nations absorb all Palestinian people in ratio of their populations. they have so much land and they also talk about ‘ummah’ , so much concern about Palestinians and they could easily absorb all Palestinians. > > The jews have the right to have atleast a tiny nation like Israel for them. Muslims have so many nations already. You think Palestinian Christians are part of “the ummah”? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/138 "2012-11-17T19:14:38Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Nevertheless the point still stands, the Gaza Strip is Gaza City and its outlying regions and therefore population density wise it cannot be compared to a country. Sure it can, so long as the country is Singapore, or Monaco, or the Vatican. The problem is that it is a densely populated area without resources of its own and without the wealth of a Singapore or a Monoco or a Vatican. This drama has been played before. Hamas justifies its existence by attacking Israel. Israel ignores some level of attacks but at some point Israel responds. Israeli response is usually large. Israel does not do tit for tat some much as they tolerate a bunch and then come out with overwhelming force. The magnitude of the Israeli response will result in international criticism of its response and the rocket attacks that provoked it will be lost in the media fooferall. The twist this time is if this will end up giving al-Assad some additional space as the international community focuses its attention off Syria for a bit and as all Arabs rally round opposing the common “other”, the enemy that is Israel. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/139 "2012-11-17T19:22:45Z")
Yeah, at the risk of sounding childish, I really wish Gazans would use those 1500 or so tunnels they’ve got to the Sinai Peninsula and just go there. For good. Egypt loves their Hamas brothers. You can lob your little rockets at Israel from your new border home. For awhile. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/140 "2012-11-17T19:33:47Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The Palestinians ought to move to Syria. > They would be safer there. Lol, apparently you have not heard: > [@](#): > > It appears that as of today [a month ago], more than 500 Palestinian Arabs have been murdered in Syria by Bashir Assad’s regime. [cite](http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/10/500-dead-and-hypocritical-pro.html) Where is the flotilla for Syria? Where is the outcry from those who pretend to passionately support the “Palestinian Cause”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=8)