# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/141 "2012-11-17T19:41:51Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Yeah, at the risk of sounding childish, I really wish Gazans would use those 1500 or so tunnels they’ve got to the Sinai Peninsula and just go there. For good. Egypt loves their Hamas brothers. You can lob your little rockets at Israel from your new border home. For awhile. Your post isn’t “at the risk of sounding childish”. It is. 70% of Gazans either were ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel or the children of those who were and since then have been locked in the world’s largest concentration camp, first by the Egyptians and then by the Israelis. Why would they want to be ethnically cleansed again. I won’t condone all their actions, but anyone who blames them for wanting their homes back is either completely lacking in empathy or grossly lacking in undestanding of the human condition. Beyond that, since the Egyptians collaborated with Israel on blockading Gaza and have long insisted on buying into the PNA’s claim that the PNA is “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” your suggestion of Egypt loving their Hamas brothers, even if meant sarcastically is quite foolish. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/142 "2012-11-17T19:51:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your post isn’t “at the risk of sounding childish”. It is. > > 70% of Gazans either were ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel or the children of those who were and since then have been locked in the world’s largest concentration camp, first by the Egyptians and then by the Israelis. Why would they want to be ethnically cleansed again. > > I won’t condone all their actions, but anyone who blames them for wanting their homes back is either completely lacking in empathy or grossly lacking in undestanding of the human condition. > > Beyond that, since the Egyptians collaborated with Israel on blockading Gaza and have long insisted on buying into the PNA’s claim that the PNA is “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” your suggestion of Egypt loving their Hamas brothers, even if meant sarcastically is quite foolish. I want a pony. A unicorn pony. Guess I should bomb everyone 'til I get one. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/143 "2012-11-17T20:07:42Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/144 "2012-11-17T20:24:56Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I want a pony. A unicorn pony. Guess I should bomb everyone 'til I get one. That is an exceedingly mature response which displays an extremely thoughtful analysis of the situation and he people involved. ---
**Author:** ![lriemann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e5b9ba/32.png) [@lriemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lriemann)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/145 "2012-11-17T20:29:53Z")
Funny how the 2nd most advanced air force in the world carries out hundreds of sorties in one of the most densely populated regions in the world and only manages to kill 37 people, most of whom are combatants. > **[Wile E. Coyote vs. the Israeli Air force : a slightly mathematical look at...](https://thisboysmind.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/wile-e-coyote-vs-the-israeli-air-force-a-slightly-mathematical-look-at-the-gaza-massacre/)** > > ‘Hear that?  It’s the sound of children’s laughter… silenced’ I’m reminded of this classic Kent Brockman quote when I think about the western reaction to the ong… ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/146 "2012-11-17T20:48:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That is an exceedingly mature response which displays an extremely thoughtful analysis of the situation and he people involved. Oh well. Lots of experts have thoughtfully analysed the situation and apparently what they concluded is to just bomb Israel until they finally say “okay guys” and kill themselves. That about right? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/147 "2012-11-17T22:45:51Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I want a pony. A unicorn pony. Guess I should bomb everyone 'til I get one. Would you say the same when courts award Nazi stolen works of art from some Polish Jew? Both, the Nazi who stole it and Polish Jew are long gone, yet work of art gets returned to the rightful owner. Now, I may be a tiny bit biased because I was also expelled from my house but returning works of art seems somewhat less important than returning to the house where you were born. That the world sees nothing wrong with pursuit of art stolen 60 years ago yet closes eyes on stolen land and houses LESS than 60 years ago only tells you how eff’d up everything is in no small portion thanks to the same people. Disgusting is what it is but then, again, I know there’s a “logical” explanation for anything. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/148 "2012-11-18T00:22:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Would you say the same when courts award Nazi stolen works of art from some Polish Jew? Both, the Nazi who stole it and Polish Jew are long gone, yet work of art gets returned to the rightful owner. Now, I may be a tiny bit biased because I was also expelled from my house but returning works of art seems somewhat less important than returning to the house where you were born. > > That the world sees nothing wrong with pursuit of art stolen 60 years ago yet closes eyes on stolen land and houses LESS than 60 years ago only tells you how eff’d up everything is in no small portion thanks to the same people. > > Disgusting is what it is but then, again, I know there’s a “logical” explanation for anything. This argument might work if works of art were the only things stolen from European Jews during the Holocaust. As you may have heard, the Nazis and their host countries also confiscated their homes, land, businesses, and lives. Do you suggest that Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, etc., etc., etc., return homes and land to the Jews who owned them before 1945? Because that’s not going to happen. Works of art are, in many ways, just symbolic. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/149 "2012-11-18T00:48:11Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > This argument might work if works of art were the only things stolen from European Jews during the Holocaust. As you may have heard, the Nazis and their host countries also confiscated their homes, land, businesses, and lives. Do you suggest that Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, etc., etc., etc., return homes and land to the Jews who owned them before 1945? Because that’s not going to happen. Works of art are, in many ways, just symbolic. Didn’t take you long. Explanation is quite elegant. However - [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2012/194849.htm](http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2012/194849.htm) - it is misleading as to this date US Government sponsored process is still underway. It’s slow but you will get your every penny back. And more. Which, means you are kinda lying but hey, it works with gullible people and if you repeat it it long enough, it might become a paradigm. Even more disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/150 "2012-11-18T01:02:03Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > However - [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2012/194849.htm](http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2012/194849.htm) - it is misleading as to this date US Government sponsored process is still underway. It’s slow but you will get your every penny back. And more. Which, means you are kinda lying but hey, it works with gullible people and if you repeat it it long enough, it might become a paradigm. In this forum you’re not allowed to accuse other posters of lying. You have been here more than long enough to know that, so don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![DavidPeab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/54ee81/32.png) [@DavidPeab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidPeab)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/151 "2012-11-18T01:37:45Z")
Whoa, you folks are getting way too technical here. Let’s keep this in perspective, since the Arab Spring most of the Middle East has become a powder keg without the “guiding hand” of imperial western rule. This skirmish is the beginning of WWIII. Or the Apocalypse for our Christian readers. Revelation speaks of the time when an older man from DE would debate a handsome blue eyed hunk about how Iran (Persia) would get closer to a nuclear weapon (smiting hand of Allah) every day if a dark skinned man was chosen to lead the land. Tell your children to remember where they were the day I revealed this prophecy! OK feed the troll now. Seriously though. Old arguments and agreements aside. Since they are rarely worth the paper they were written on, does anyone else think this really bad timing considering the instability in the region, Europe’s problems with Greece and Turkey as well as the combative and divided political climate in the U.S.? Someone on the hill make find this a good time to make hay for their side and light the bloody fuse. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/152 "2012-11-18T01:56:30Z")
An older man from Delaware? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/153 "2012-11-18T02:07:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I was looking at the CNN map today and it struck me as to how _tiny_ the whole place is. A rocket with 70 km range can strike TelAviv from Gaza. I have to drive that far just to get to court. Seriously the place absolutely dima-fucking-nutive. Israel proper is around 5.4% of the total area of Montana. I’m strongly pro-Israel (unlike the people that mostly bash Israel, I’m not an absolutist, it’s plain to anyone that Israel has blood on its hands and does some things it shouldn’t), but I often wonder about the wisdom of choosing the place they did to settle back at the end of the 19th century. I don’t know a lot about the beginnings of the Zionist movement but I just wonder why they didn’t try this somewhere a bit loss populated. Incidentally the U.S. Federal Government owns far more land in Montana than Israel has total area, it’d be pretty easy to just sign it over to them. This isn’t bad land either, no worse than land where Israel is, in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/154 "2012-11-18T02:13:02Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > What do you consider a “typical” attack on civilian population? Please give me the number of missiles your country would accept being fired daily at their civilians, then we can discuss whether Hamas fire can be considered “typical” or not. This is a point often forgotten when people say Israel should show restraint. I can think of no other world power that would not respond with overwhelming force in response to sustained and persistent military attacks. Even the countries of Europe that often have extremely anti-Israeli press would be talking ground invasion **after** half the offending country was already leveled by every piece of ballistic hardware they had to throw at it. ---
**Author:** ![DavidPeab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/54ee81/32.png) [@DavidPeab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidPeab)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/155 "2012-11-18T02:32:53Z")
> [@](#): > > An older man from Delaware? Joe Biden and Ryan during the vice pres debate. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/156 "2012-11-18T02:37:30Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Would you say the same when courts award Nazi stolen works of art from some Polish Jew? Both, the Nazi who stole it and Polish Jew are long gone, yet work of art gets returned to the rightful owner. Now, I may be a tiny bit biased because I was also expelled from my house but returning works of art seems somewhat less important than returning to the house where you were born. > > That the world sees nothing wrong with pursuit of art stolen 60 years ago yet closes eyes on stolen land and houses LESS than 60 years ago only tells you how eff’d up everything is in no small portion thanks to the same people. > > Disgusting is what it is but then, again, I know there’s a “logical” explanation for anything. This kind of ignores **most** of history. So some Jews get some compensation or even restoration of things taken from them during the Holocaust. Most peoples do not, period. We’ve made some nice gestures to the Native American tribes since the bad days, but we’re keeping Manhattan and the rest of the country, all the same. The ruling family of Germany were initially Dukes of Brandenburg, through inheritance they acquired some land in Prussia (part of which was Poland at the time) and expanded from there until they eventually became a powerful State in Northeast Germany/West Poland and eventually became German Emperors. During this history there was a lot of sponsored migration of Germans to technically “Polish” lands, by the Hohenzollerns. Since at least the 1600s, “Kaliningrad” previously known as Koenigsberg was heavily German and had essentially been German for hundreds of years. Part of the price you pay when you lose wars is you lose land and your people lose their homes. After WWII pretty much all Germans that may have been living in those regions their whole lives and descended from people who had lived there since the 1600s were essentially forced to move out. They will never get their homes back and no one is even really suggesting they should. Likewise, throughout the Muslim world since the days of the First Caliphate many Jews lived under Muslim rule. For over a thousand years many Jews, some Arabs or Turks or Moors or what have you lived as Jews under Muslim rule. For various reasons, when World War II ended and Israel was founded, almost to a one, the Muslim controlled countries expelled their long present Jewish populations. They also have little to no hope of ever getting their homes returned to them. That doesn’t make any of these things right (or wrong, really), but the reality is at some point people do have to accept you can lose things and you aren’t getting them back. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/157 "2012-11-18T03:00:13Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Didn’t take you long. Explanation is quite elegant. > > However - [http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2012/194849.htm](http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2012/194849.htm) - it is misleading as to this date US Government sponsored process is still underway. It’s slow but you will get your every penny back. And more. Which, means you are kinda lying but hey, it works with gullible people and if you repeat it it long enough, it might become a paradigm. > > Even more disgusting. Compensation is not remotely the same thing as getting one’s home back, so I’m not really sure what you are attempting to compare. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/158 "2012-11-18T03:02:21Z")
What percentage of the boundaries in the ME were carved by European countries over the last couple of centuries? ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/159 "2012-11-18T05:40:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think Palestinian Christians are part of “the ummah”? I do not know. Its upto Christians of Israel and the ummah to decide. But I read that Druze place less emphasis on Arab identity and self-identify more as Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/160 "2012-11-18T05:47:36Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > I do not know. Its upto Christians of Israel and the ummah to decide. But I read that Druze place less emphasis on Arab identity and self-identify more as Israeli. Majority of Israeli Druze self-identify as Israelis, and serve in the IDF. I believe there was/is a Druze Major General in the IDF, several Brigadier Generals and a slew of lower officers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=9)