# Operation Pillar of Cloud -- Gaza Under Siege **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137 "2012-11-15T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/161 "2012-11-18T06:04:01Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > I do not know. Its upto Christians of Israel and the ummah to decide. The Jews of Israel have made it very clear that the “Christians of Israel” are “Palestinians” “Arabs” or whatever else you’d like to describe them. They’re all issued IDs which state “Nationality: Arab”. > [@](#): > > But I read that Druze place less emphasis on Arab identity and self-identify more as Israeli. The Druze within most of Israel have insisted that they are not Arabs, take being called “Arab” to be an insult and pushed hard so that on the IDs they carry it says “Nationality:Druze”. That said, outside of the military and the police, they’re certainly not treated as equals because, to be blunt, they’re not Jews in a state which defines itself as “the sovereign state of the Jewish people NOT of it’s citizens.” Beyond that, the Druze of the Golan Heights have made it very clear that they have no desire to be Israelis and consider themselves to be occupied by an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/162 "2012-11-18T06:14:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Jews of Israel have made it very clear that the “Christians of Israel” are “Palestinians” “Arabs” or whatever else you’d like to describe them. > > They’re all issued IDs which state “Nationality: Arab”. > > The Druze within most of Israel have insisted that they are not Arabs, take being called “Arab” to be an insult and pushed hard so that on the IDs they carry it says “Nationality: Druze”. > > That said, outside of the military and the police, they’re certainly not treated as equals because, to be blunt, they’re not Jews in a state which defines itself as “the sovereign state of the Jewish people NOT of it’s citizens.” > > Beyond that, the Druze of the Golan Heights have made it very clear that they have no desire to be Israelis and consider themselves to be occupied by an enemy. i [read](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groupings) that > [@](#): > > Since the establishment of the state, the Druze have demonstrated solidarity with Israel and distanced themselves from Arab and Islamic radicalism and so much solidarity that > [@](#): > > Druze are conscripted into the Israel Defense Forces And under such condition, I do not believe that there can be major discrimination against the Druze. Christians can also demonstrate things that the Druze have and can attain similar status, cant they? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/163 "2012-11-18T06:30:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Jews of Israel have made it very clear that the “Christians of Israel” are “Palestinians” “Arabs” or whatever else you’d like to describe them. > > They’re all issued IDs which state “Nationality: Arab”.] > [@](#): > > The Druze within most of Israel have insisted that they are not Arabs, take being called “Arab” to be an insult and pushed hard so that on the IDs they carry it says “Nationality:\*\*Druze”. Nitpick – Israeli ID [does not specify nationality in documents issued since at least 2005](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teudat_Zehut#Question_of_ethnicity) (Wiki, because I’m to lazy to find a more official cite in English; bolding mine.) > [@](#): > > There have been some fierce legal battles about identifying the ethnicity of the bearer in the Israeli Identity card. \*\*As of 2005, the ethnicity has not been printed; a line of eight asterisks appears instead. \*\*In 2002, the Supreme Court of Israel instructed the Interior Ministry to indicate the ethnicity of people who underwent a Reform conversion as Jews. The Minister at the time, Eli Yishai, a member of Shas, an Orthodox party, decided he would drop the ethnicity category altogether, rather than list as Jews people whom he considered non-Jews. In 2004, the Supreme Court denied a citizen’s petition to reinstate this indicator, stating that the field in the document was meant for statistical collection only, and not as a declarative statement of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/164 "2012-11-18T06:36:15Z")
[quote=“truthSeeker2, post:162, topic:641137”] i [read](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Ethnic_and_religious_groupings) that and so much solidarity that/QUOTE] Wikipedia is an extremely shitty source for reliable information on controversial topics. > [@](#): > > And under such condition, I do not believe that there can be major discrimination against the Druze. You’re arguing that because the Druze are conscripted into the IDF that they can’t face discrimination? That outside of the IDF they have a tough time getting employed as anything other than cops or private security? Ok, then by your standards African-Americans faced little discrimination in the US from 1940-present day because they were drafted and actively recruited by the US military. The Druze are certainly treated better than Muslims and Christians, but they certainly face discrimination. > [@](#): > > Christians can also demonstrate things that the Druze have and can attain similar status, cant they? No, Christian Arabs are certainly treated vastly worse than the Druze. I’d recommend reading David Shipler’s Pulitzer Award winning\* Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land \*and _Sleeping on a Wire_ by David Grossman for those interested in learning about discrimination against Christian Arabs in Israel. David Shipler was the _New York Times_ Bureau Chief in Israel and David Grossman is one of Israel’s most distinguished journalists who, for personal reasons, can hardly be viewed as an “Arab lover”. They are both vastly more reliable than wikipedia articles put together by anonymous activists with axes to grind. I certainly won’t pretend that I agree with the idiots who care nothing for the Palestinians or their cause or the discrimination Muslims and Middle Easterners but just lover to sock it to the Jews but that certainly doesn’t make me an apologist for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/165 "2012-11-18T06:39:37Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Nitpick – Israeli ID [does not specify nationality in documents issued since at least 2005](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teudat_Zehut#Question_of_ethnicity) (Wiki, because I’m to lazy to find a more official cite in English; bolding mine.) Fair enough. It’s worth noting this was a decision imposed by Israel’s courts not it’s legislative of executive branch. I’m hardly a fan of Israel’s government or someone who sees Zionism as something other that an archaic form of 19th Century blood nationalism, but the Israeli courts have long stood up for human rights and deserve to be commended for that. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/166 "2012-11-18T06:50:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wikipedia is an extremely shitty source for reliable information on controversial topics. > > You’re arguing that because the Druze are conscripted into the IDF that they can’t face discrimination? That outside of the IDF they have a tough time getting employed as anything other than cops or private security? > > Ok, then by your standards African-Americans faced little discrimination in the US from 1940-present day because they were drafted and actively recruited by the US military. > > The Druze are certainly treated better than Muslims and Christians, but they certainly face discrimination. > > No, Christian Arabs are certainly treated vastly worse than the Druze. > > I’d recommend reading David Shipler’s Pulitzer Award winning\* Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land \*and _Sleeping on a Wire_ by David Grossman for those interested in learning about discrimination against Christian Arabs in Israel. > > David Shipler was the _New York Times_ Bureau Chief in Israel and David Grossman is one of Israel’s most distinguished journalists who, for personal reasons, can hardly be viewed as an “Arab lover”. > > They are both vastly more reliable than wikipedia articles put together by anonymous activists with axes to grind. > > I certainly won’t pretend that I agree with the idiots who care nothing for the Palestinians or their cause or the discrimination Muslims and Middle Easterners but just lover to sock it to the Jews but that certainly doesn’t make me an apologist for Israel. I am sure African-Americans are happy in USA even though there may be some discrimination against them and Likewise, Druze are happy and do not want separate country and so, serve in Israeli army. I had said _I do not believe that there can be_\* major discrimination\*\* against the Druze.\* and I stand by that. Why wouldn’t similar status be given to arab christians if they demonstrated similar loyalty? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/167 "2012-11-18T06:56:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Fair enough. > > It’s worth noting this was a decision imposed by Israel’s courts not it’s legislative of executive branch. The decision not to list ethnicity was taken by the executive branch and was not “imposed” on it by the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/168 "2012-11-18T07:05:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Fair enough. > > It’s worth noting this was a decision imposed by Israel’s courts not it’s legislative of executive branch. Not exactly – the courts instructed the Ultra-Orthodox Minister of the Interior to issue ID’s to Reform and Conservative Jews stating “Nationality:Jewish.” Rather than do so, Eli Yishay decided to remove the Nationality field from the ID card completely. Supreme Court actually **upheld** this decision in the face of some citizens who insisted on **having** their nationality listed on their ID. The interesting thing about this whole issue was that it was all about internal “Who is a Jew?” stuff, not about whether Jews, Arabs etc… should be told apart by their ID. But I’ll take good result no matter how they came about. > [@](#): > > I’m hardly a fan of Israel’s government… You and I both… I await my chance to try and vote Bibi out on Jan. 22. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/169 "2012-11-18T07:08:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The decision not to list ethnicity was taken by the executive branch and was not “imposed” on it by the courts. Yes, because they didn’t want to have to put “Nationality: Jewish” on the IDs of some Jews. That’s hardly a decision based on tolerance and it was done under duress from the Israeli courts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/170 "2012-11-18T07:13:36Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > I am sure African-Americans are happy in USA even though there may be some discrimination against them and Likewise, Druze are happy and do not want separate country? So you think the people of the Golan Heights love being a part of Israel.:dubious: You’re aware they’ve been offered Israeli citizenship and, virtually without exception, they’ve all rejected it. > [@](#): > > I had said I do not believe that there can be major discrimination against the Druze. and I stand by that. Ah, “major discrimination”. I’m reminded of all those apologists for the Dhimmi status Jews and Christians faced under Islamic law. That they only faced “soft discrimination” and were “practically equals”. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/171 "2012-11-18T08:58:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What percentage of the boundaries in the ME were carved by European countries over the last couple of centuries? About 100%. If you do not count Israel. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/172 "2012-11-18T09:15:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So you think the people of the Golan Heights love being a part of Israel.:dubious: > > You’re aware they’ve been offered Israeli citizenship and, virtually without exception, they’ve all rejected it. But Golan heights is different from West Bank, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Ah, “major discrimination”. > > I’m reminded of all those apologists for the Dhimmi status Jews and Christians faced under Islamic law. That they only faced “soft discrimination” and were “practically equals”. what are you comparing the discrimination with?? the type of discrimination African-Americans face in USA or the Dhimmi status Jews and Christians faced under Islamic law. The latter is far worse in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/173 "2012-11-18T09:19:39Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > That the world sees nothing wrong with pursuit of art stolen 60 years ago yet closes eyes on stolen land and houses LESS than 60 years ago Then perhaps the Arabs should come up for some compensation for the descendants of Jews who were chased out of Gaza, Hebron, Cairo, Jerusalem and Baghdad back in '48. It’s all about righting past wrongs, right? And the Arabs have a passionate sense of justice, right? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/174 "2012-11-18T10:04:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > About 100%. If you do not count Israel. The border between Israel and Lebanon was established as part of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, while the border between Israel and Egypt was set between the Ottoman and British Empires in 1906. The Israeli-Jordanian border was established solely by the British, when they founded the Kingdom of Transjordan. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/175 "2012-11-18T10:30:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The border between Israel and Lebanon was established as part of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, while the border between Israel and Egypt was set between the Ottoman and British Empires in 1906. The Israeli-Jordanian border was established solely by the British, when they founded the Kingdom of Transjordan. Israels borders of today, both de fact and dejure are different from that of the Mandate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/176 "2012-11-18T10:55:56Z")
Some of them are, some of them aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/177 "2012-11-18T11:13:39Z")
LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/178 "2012-11-18T11:37:59Z")
I’m sorry? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/179 "2012-11-18T14:42:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That doesn’t make any of these things right (or wrong, really), but the reality is at some point people do have to accept you can lose things and you aren’t getting them back. Path to peace that Israel pursues is exactly this - until Palestinians accept that they lost there will be no peace. Since Israelis are leeching off slowly - and killing off slowly too (not too many civilians - just right amount) and over the decades the prospects of peace are dim as there always will be something new to accept. The only circumstantial benefit - and that’s by design - is that Israelis are dealing with heavily disorganized and historically abused ethnic group they can mount no serious attempt to get their stuff back. The phrase “land for peace” where Israel was supposed to give up some land for peace is the paradigm but reality for quite a long time is pursuit of “land for war” where every new settlement, every new house built by Israelis in occupied territory is an investment in maintaining status quo of eternally pissed off Palestinians . Beyond disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137/180 "2012-11-18T14:52:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > until Palestinians accept that they lost there will be no peace. This is exactly right. For there to be peace, the Arabs must give up their dream of putting an end to Jewish Israel. > [@](#): > > Israelis are dealing with heavily disorganized and historically abused ethnic group they can mount no serious attempt to get their stuff back. What do you think should be done to “get the stuff back” of the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were chased out of Gaza City, Hebron, Baghdad, Jerusalem, and many other places by Arabs in the 1930s and 40s? Or do you believe that once Arabs have successfully ethnically cleansed an area, it becomes Arab land forever? > [@](#): > > every new house built by Israelis in occupied territory is an investment in maintaining status quo of eternally pissed off Palestinians . Unfortunately, the Arabs are eternally pissed off regardless of how many houses Israelis build or tear down. Thus the current situation in Gaza even though Israel withdrew a number of years ago. Note also that there were no Jewish settlements on the West Bank between 1948 and 1967. And yet the Arabs were “eternally pissed off” nonetheless. > [@](#): > > Beyond disgusting. Yep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pillar-of-cloud-gaza-under-siege/641137.md?page=10)