# "OPERATION PLIERS": CIA planning interference/coup in Venezuela referendum? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196 "2007-11-29T17:36:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/41 "2007-11-30T17:49:33Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] I´ve been reading the [original cite in Spanish language](http://www.aporrea.org/tiburon/n105390.html) and it`s embarrasing (that and the whole site), I`d dare to say it`s an obvious forgery by the use of the language. For once if this was an american memo, written in English, the operation would be called Operation Pincers, not Pliers; pliers being a translation of “pinzas” as mentioned here: [/QUOTE] There are plenty of good reasons to be skeptical of this memo, but that is not one of them. We’re dealing with something that, **if** genuine, has been translated from English to Spanish and then rendered into English again for press-release purposes. Try that with Babelfish sometime and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/42 "2007-11-30T17:51:27Z")
BG…if they had the memo they would have simply published it, no? Why would they have translated it into Spanish and then translated it back into English if THEY HAD THE ORIGINAL ENGLISH VERSION OF THE MEMO??? Good grief. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/43 "2007-11-30T18:11:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Bush I’s invasion of Panama was **actually** called Operation Just Cause :rolleyes: . . . [/QUOTE] The original name for the operation, before Bush ordered it changed, was Operation “Blue Spoon” (The two other operations that got rolled up into Operation Just Cause were Operations “Nifty Package” and “Acid Gambit”) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/44 "2007-11-30T18:27:31Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] BG…if they had the memo they would have simply published it, no? Why would they have translated it into Spanish and then translated it back into English if THEY HAD THE ORIGINAL ENGLISH VERSION OF THE MEMO??? Good grief. -XT [/QUOTE] You’re not thinking like a bureaucrat. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/45 "2007-11-30T18:30:29Z")
And you are really trying to hard to make this all work to your preconceived idea of what’s going on here. So…we are both guilty. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/46 "2007-11-30T18:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ah, those were the days . . . Nowadays, operations “code”-names all seem to have been cooked up by marketing departments: Operation Desert Shield, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Infinite Justice . . . Bush I’s invasion of Panama was **actually** called Operation Just Cause :rolleyes: . . . [/QUOTE] Yes, except there’s a difference between overt ops and covert ops, no? Overt ops have market tested code names when the go overt: Operation America Kicks Ass, Operation America: Fuck Yeah!, Operation Renounce Satan and All His Works. Covert ops literally have a code name generated randomly by computer so that the code name has absolutely nothing to do with the operation. Operation Have Blue, Operation Paperclip, and so forth. The other thing about the memo is the strange mix of vague and specific. It says things like “foment unrest” without explaining what exactly that IS. And then it names specific people, specific media outlets, in order to specifically implicate specific people. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/47 "2007-11-30T18:38:32Z")
What we are witnessing here is not the total breakdown of any pretense of rational inquiry under the pressure of an agenda-driven ideology. Nopers. Not at all. And this certainly isn’t a microcosm, either. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/48 "2007-11-30T18:46:08Z")
I have examined this post carefully, and find, to my astonishment, that there isn’t a hint of irony. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/49 "2007-11-30T18:52:55Z")
Well, I hope it’s all smoke-and-mirrors and the referendum goes forward with no disturbances. I am at any rate very encouraged that nobody at all has yet come in here to argue the U.S. government **should** try to destabilize Chavez’ government. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/50 "2007-11-30T19:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Well, I hope it’s all smoke-and-mirrors and the referendum goes forward with no disturbances. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: If George Bush or Hillary Clinton or Jimmy Carter had proposed a referendum granting themselves extraordinary unchecked executive power, would you hope that there were no disturbances as the referendum went forward? If there were massive demonstrations against the referendum, would that be bad or good? What if the Canadian government opposed the referendum, and supported domestic groups opposed to the referendum? The fact that Hugo Chavez’s consolidation of power is opposed by the Bush administration does not therefore mean that Hugo Chavez’s consolidation of power must be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/51 "2007-11-30T19:16:30Z")
Dude, it’s Latin America. You have to make allowances. Except when it’s someone on the right of the political spectrum. Then there are no allowances. That’s freakin’ obvious, man. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/52 "2007-11-30T19:20:16Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] If George Bush or Hillary Clinton or Jimmy Carter had proposed a referendum granting themselves extraordinary unchecked executive power, would you hope that there were no disturbances as the referendum went forward? [/quote] Depends on how you define “disturbances.” [QUOTE=Lemur866] If there were massive demonstrations against the referendum, would that be bad or good? [/quote] That would be good, I suppose, but street demonstrations (entirely home-grown, in all likelihood) are happening **now** in Venezuela, which is no surprise as many such have happened before; the memo seems to contemplate “disturbances” that go way beyond that. [QUOTE=Lemur866] What if the Canadian government opposed the referendum, and supported domestic groups opposed to the referendum? [/quote] Let 'em, so long as they do so openly and above-board, and the Canadian equivalent of the CIA is not involved. [QUOTE=Lemur866] The fact that Hugo Chavez’s consolidation of power is opposed by the Bush administration does not therefore mean that Hugo Chavez’s consolidation of power must be a good thing. [/QUOTE] No, it doesn’t; but such opposition remains a **bad** thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/53 "2007-11-30T20:20:17Z")
BTW, the [referendum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_constitutional_referendum%2C_2007) is not **just** about consolidating Chavez’ power, though that’s certainly in there. > [@](#): > > The reforms proposed include abolishing presidential term limits, increasing presidential terms from six to seven years, removing the central bank autonomy, empowering community councils and workers councils with legal and constitutional rights and recognition. Article 70 states workers councils will enable workers to democratically manage any enterprise that is direct or indirect social property. The changes will also lower the voting age limit to 16, and institute a six-hour work day. In total, there are 69 constitutional amendments in the referendum. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/54 "2007-11-30T21:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I have examined this post carefully, and find, to my astonishment, that there isn’t a hint of irony. [/QUOTE] Sorry…my irony meter is currently a smoking pile of char in the middle of the floor. It’s laying next to the smoking remains of my hypocrisy meter… [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I am at any rate very encouraged that nobody at all has yet come in here to argue the U.S. government should try to destabilize Chavez’ government. [/QUOTE] I think Chavez is doing quite well enough in destabilizing his own government. He doesn’t need Bush’s help there. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/55 "2007-12-01T08:28:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I am at any rate very encouraged that nobody at all has yet come in here to argue the U.S. government **should** try to destabilize Chavez’ government. [/QUOTE] I think it’s a crying shame that no one has seen fit to boot that village idiot out of office. The last thing anyone needs is a complete retardate in charge of a country. Here’s the buffoon spouting off like a young earth creationist on YouTube: [Chavez el antropologista](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbNy1_usvJc&e) Rough translation: - Chavez: How many years old is the human race, Francis? 20 centuries, right? Something like 20 centuries? - Francis: A little more. - Chavez: A little more? - Francis: Yes. - Chavez: about 25? - Francis: Yes, right. - Chavez: 25 centuries, yes – thanks. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/56 "2007-12-01T17:42:44Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] I think it’s a crying shame that no one has seen fit to boot that village idiot out of office. The last thing anyone needs is a complete retardate in charge of a country. Here’s the buffoon spouting off like a young earth creationist on YouTube: [Chavez el antropologista](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbNy1_usvJc&e) Rough translation: - Chavez: How many years old is the human race, Francis? 20 centuries, right? Something like 20 centuries? - Francis: A little more. - Chavez: A little more? - Francis: Yes. - Chavez: about 25? - Francis: Yes, right. - Chavez: 25 centuries, yes – thanks. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Sure that wasn’t an interview with W? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/57 "2007-12-01T18:07:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The internal memorandum […] confirms that the operation is coordinated by the team of Human Intelligence (HUMINT) in Venezuela. [/QUOTE] (1) I’ve never heard the term HUMINT used to refer to operations. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMINT) also lists the term as referring to a form of gathered data – not a group of people. Whoever wrote this document knows next to nothing about actual intelligence activities. (2) The term “OPERATION” is rarely used, even in the DoD, for stuff you want to keep quiet. **marshmallow** is dead-on in stating that if this were real, it would be called something like COPPER NOBLE or FICKLE YELLOW. Again, the author has no idea how intelligence works in the U.S. I’d say that they made up the memo to support their conclusions, paid lots of attention to the content, and totally ignored making it realistic or plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/58 "2007-12-01T18:17:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ah, those were the days . . . Nowadays, operations “code”-names all seem to have been cooked up by marketing departments: Operation Desert Shield, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Infinite Justice . . . Bush I’s invasion of Panama was **actually** called Operation Just Cause :rolleyes: . . . [/QUOTE] Did you notice that every Operation you cite is a DoD movement of troops which was acknowledged by our gov’t in public? Secret operations don’t have marketing departments. They have obscure code names that are completely unconnected to the content of the information. In my old office, where some of the employees held fairly high security clearances, we used to joke that “You’re not cleared for CLYDESDALE,” and “Anything from the ANGRY DOLPHIN files has to be marked Burn Before Reading.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/59 "2007-12-02T22:18:12Z")
Well, I just listened to a report on the election on _All Things Considered,_ and there was no mention of an impending coup, access to polls being disrupted, etc. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196/60 "2007-12-03T01:13:17Z")
So…what conclusions do you now draw from that? -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-pliers-cia-planning-interference-coup-in-venezuela-referendum/428196.md?page=4)