# Operation Sealion...in WWI
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [January 30, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314 "2015-01-30T06:22:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/1 "2015-01-30T06:22:48Z")
Operation Sealion [Unternehmen Seelöwe] being the German plan to invade Britain in World War II, in the event it was never attempted.
Was there ever a similar plan or talk of it in World War I, a German invasion of the British mainland? Was there any chance the territorials would be used for their intended purpose?
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/2 "2015-01-30T07:12:00Z")
In WW I Germany never had control of France.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/3 "2015-01-30T07:36:05Z")
There was certainly talk of it. There was a whole [genre of fiction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_literature) about the Germans invading England.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/4 "2015-01-30T13:19:46Z")
With the British navy so dominant over the German High Seas Fleet for most of the war, an invasion attempt would’ve been suicidal (not to mention the lack of decent landing craft).
On the other hand, a half-serious British plan to land troops in Germany would have failed due to being crushed by superior weight of German forces.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/5 "2015-01-30T13:24:55Z")
For how successful a WWI amphibious landing would likely be one has just to look to Gallipoli.
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### Author:  [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/6 "2015-01-30T14:42:33Z")
From where would the Kaiser’s army and navy have launched its invasion of Great Britain?
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### Author:  [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/7 "2015-01-30T20:31:11Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#):
>
> From where would the Kaiser’s army and navy have launched its invasion of Great Britain?
They controlled a fairly decent chunk of the Belgian coast, including the port of Antwerp.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they had some sort of plan on file. The German military establishment loved making war plans. They even had one for [invading the United States](invading the United States) before the war. But like **Jackmannii** said the naval deadlock would need to be broken first and it seems unlikely that would have come out in Germany’s favor.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/8 "2015-01-30T20:53:44Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#):
>
> But like **Jackmannii** said the naval deadlock would need to be broken first and it seems unlikely that would have come out in Germany’s favor.
They did okay at Jutland. Could they not escort troop carriers to England?
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/9 "2015-01-30T22:32:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> Could they not escort troop carriers to England?
How would the troops get ashore? (England would probably not have provided port facilities and a welcoming band.)
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/10 "2015-01-30T22:39:11Z")
> [@Xema](#):
>
> How would the troops get ashore? (England would probably not have provided port facilities and a welcoming band.)
I did not say they will not come, My Lords, I said they will not come by sea.
🙂
Hell, how was the Spanish Armada going to land? How did William the Bastard get his guys off the boats?
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/11 "2015-01-30T22:41:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> They did okay at Jutland. Could they not escort troop carriers to England?
The German navy did well tactically, but the battle merely served to reinforce the fact of British control of the North Sea. The Germans needed to gain a clear and crushing superiority over the British Navy to make a landing a serious possibility. That they never did - and in fact, the German navy never risked large-scale battle again.
Without control of the sea, a landing just isn’t possible.
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/12 "2015-01-30T22:49:39Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> I did not say they will not come, My Lords, I said they will not come by sea.
> 🙂
>
> Hell, how was the Spanish Armada going to land? How did William the Bastard get his guys off the boats?
The Spanish Armada actually had a lot of trouble dealing with these realities - they were supposed to ‘pick up’ troops from the Spanish army in the Netherlands, but the Dutch “sea beggars” (basically, the Dutch inshore navy) threatened the small boats that were supposed to ferry the Spanish soldiers over to the (deep water) Spanish navy - and the Spanish had nothing of shallow draft to defend them with.
The Spanish general in the Netherlands kept pointing this flaw in the plan out, but the Spanish king simply ignored him. As a result, the Spanish general simply refused to make the attempt. The Armada pulled in to the rendevoux point, no-one was there, and they got attacked by English fire-ships … but even if the English navy had not existed, the Spanish simply had no way to load their troops, let alone un-load them.
> [@](#):
>
> The Dutch flyboats mainly operated in the shallow waters off Zeeland and Flanders that larger warships with a deeper draught, like the Spanish and English galleons, could not safely enter. The Dutch therefore enjoyed unchallenged naval superiority in these waters, even though their navy was inferior in naval armament. An essential element of the plan of invasion, as it was eventually implemented, was the transportation of a large part of Parma’s Army of Flanders as the main invasion force in unarmed barges across the English Channel. These barges would be protected by the large ships of the Armada. However, to get to the Armada, they would have to cross the zone dominated by the Dutch navy, where the Armada could not go. This problem seems to have been overlooked by the Spanish planners, but it was insurmountable. Because of this obstacle, England never was in any real danger, at least from the Duke of Parma and the Army of Flanders.
> **[Spanish Armada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada)**
>
> Total
> Spanish Netherlands
> Total
William the Bastard was using what amounted to viking long-ships, so beaching was a breeze.
> **[Mora (ship)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_(ship))**
>
> Mora was the name of William the Conqueror's flagship, the largest and fastest ship in his invasion fleet of 700 or more ships\[a\] used during the Norman conquest of England in 1066.
> Mora was a ship of clinker construction built at Barfleur in Normandy, a gift of Matilda of Flanders to her husband William the Conqueror in the summer of 1066. She was a larger ship and carried ten knights with their entourages and equipment.\[b\] The ship was captained by Stephen Fitz Airard, meaning the son of Air...
> **[Longship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship#Drekkar)**
>
> Longships were a type of specialised Scandinavian warships that have a long history in Scandinavia, with their existence being archaeologically proven and documented from at least the fourth century BC. Originally invented and used by the Norsemen (commonly known as the Vikings) for commerce, exploration, and warfare during the Viking Age, many of the longship's characteristics were adopted by other cultures, like Anglo-Saxons, and continued to influence shipbuilding for centuries.
> The longshi...
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### Author:  [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/13 "2015-01-31T00:02:17Z")
Just to add to the ‘No, they couldn’t possibly have done it’. Britain had broken the German naval codes and could pretty much decrypt them in real time.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/14 "2015-01-31T02:05:37Z")
Thanks, Malthus!
I thought the Dutch were fighting the English, but perhaps not at the time of the Armada.
🙂
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/15 "2015-01-31T02:33:38Z")
The Anglo-Dutch wars were in the latter part of the 17th century.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/16 "2015-01-31T04:28:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> The German navy did well tactically, but the battle merely served to reinforce the fact of British control of the North Sea.
That’s a generous description. I would have pointed out that the Germans fled at Jutland – twice. Although they inflicted more damage on the British than they suffered in return, they only avoided more serious loss by making a run for it, including ordering the sacrifice of the smaller ships in one of their escapes.
Only some sort of monumental error by the Royal Navy could have made it possible for the Germans to get troops ashore, and even then it would have been a one-time fluke; they would not have been able to resupply or reinforce them. And war plans that depend on the other side making a monumental error are dangerous fantasies.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/17 "2015-01-31T05:21:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> I did not say they will not come, My Lords, I said they will not come by sea.
> 🙂
>
> Hell, how was the Spanish Armada going to land? How did William the Bastard get his guys off the boats?
Sea invasion is never easy, but usually you get low draft boats or make multiple trips with the ship’s boats.
The French Armada, some decades before the Spanish Armada, had very minor success at landing troops on the Isle of Wight. But were effectively [beaten by local troops](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bonchurch).
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/18 "2015-01-31T16:30:22Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> The Anglo-Dutch wars were in the latter part of the 17th century.
I thought they were on and off. I believe they were at it again in the 19th century.
My mistake. 🙂
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/19 "2015-01-31T16:32:07Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#):
>
> But were effectively [beaten by local troops](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bonchurch).
Who were rumored to be out of ammo at one point and firing buttons at the French.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-sealion-in-wwi/711314/20 "2015-01-31T17:22:40Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#):
>
> From where would the Kaiser’s army and navy have launched its invasion of Great Britain?
Germany, of course. It’s so obvious that we’d never expect the sneaky Hun to actually try it, which is precisely why they would!
Thanks for the replies. Sounds like it was such a non-starter the idea didn’t get as part as the planning stage like in the sequel, though Operation Sealion would never have worked if it were attempted either.
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