# Opining that Jesus or God are fictional characters is trolling, by definition? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 2, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227 "2014-09-02T03:50:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/61 "2014-09-02T19:46:26Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > I actually somewhat disagree–I think that given the specific question that was asked, “God” could be a valid answer–certainly, God and Jesus have been portrayed many times by many actors in many movies. > > Nonetheless, I think the mods are correct here. If the post had said, “depending on your point of view, God might count…” then it would be legitimate subject for discussion. But instead, it made a comment about “fan fiction,” which I can’t interpret in any other way than as a dig at the Bible. The post was plainly inflammatory. I didn’t take the “fan fiction” as a dig at the Bible - I took it as a dig (if one ) at the amount of material at the avg bible bookstore - which is why I said the respondent could have phrased it better. IOW, I think we’re in agreement overall - I think the Mods could have called for him to clarify “fan fiction” and then had an instruction to keep any discussion of “God” to the “clearly fictional” portrayals. > [@Reyemile](#): > > Edit: **simster** , by that logic, would Napoleon Bonaparte count as a popular fictional character? After all, the short egotist with the ridiculous accent and bad case of tallness-envy has nothing to do with the real entity known as Napoleon, but rather the fiction surrounding that entity. Most have no issue seperating fact/fiction in those cases - and yes - he would. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/62 "2014-09-02T19:46:59Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Edit: **simster** , by that logic, would Napoleon Bonaparte count as a popular fictional character? After all, the short egotist with the ridiculous accent and bad case of tallness-envy has nothing to do with the real entity known as Napoleon, but rather the fiction surrounding that entity. Likewise, you could claim that Abraham Lincoln is a fictional character if you consider his portrayal in _Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter_ or _Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure._ ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/63 "2014-09-02T19:59:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Likewise, you could claim that Abraham Lincoln is a fictional character if you consider his portrayal in _Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter_ or _Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure._ Don’t forget he was in Star Trek, etc - So, if Abe’s or Napolean’s portrayals reach a mass to call them “popular fictional chars” - does that change, at all, the factual person or history? Had someone listed Lincoln - or JFK - or others in that thread - would they have been mod’d on it? Or should the OP been more clear and stated “ONLY FICTIONAL with no ties to persons or dieties, living or dead, are to be discussed here” (Harry Potter in, Abraham Lincoln VH out) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/64 "2014-09-02T20:02:34Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I didn’t take the “fan fiction” as a dig at the Bible - I took it as a dig (if one ) at the amount of material at the avg bible bookstore - which is why I said the respondent could have phrased it better. > > IOW, I think we’re in agreement overall - I think the Mods could have called for him to clarify “fan fiction” and then had an instruction to keep any discussion of “God” to the “clearly fictional” portrayals. > > Most have no issue seperating fact/fiction in those cases - and yes - he would. I was actually referring directly to Christian fan fiction(of which there are tons online), so that it might be counted against the large amount of Holmesian fan fiction, since the topic of the thread was which character had the most mentions. edited to add: And, yes-perhaps just asking me to clarify my post would have settled this a lot sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/65 "2014-09-02T20:03:57Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Had someone listed Lincoln - or JFK - or others in that thread - would they have been mod’d on it? I think you’re missing the point. The remark was modded because it had potential for a hijack on religious issues, not because of its accuracy or not. Unless you believe Lincoln to be a deity, the comparison hardly applies. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/66 "2014-09-02T20:11:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think you’re missing the point. The remark was modded because it had potential for a hijack on religious issues, not because of its accuracy or not. Unless you believe Lincoln to be a deity, the comparison hardly applies. I got that point - quite clearly - but preventing discussion of ‘God’ in fiction seems heavy handed and against the spirit of the board. The instructions could have easily have been "keep the discussion to the “clearly ficitonal bits about God, not the religous aspect of it”. There are those that feel just as strongly when “alternate fiction” is created based on historical figures - so the comparison is apt. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/67 "2014-09-02T20:20:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The issue of course isn’t the logic or rationality of an argument, but what forum that discussion goes in, something you’re continuing to fail to acknowledge. You’re correct.I don’t wish to acknowledge that there are any places on the SDMB where logical and rational opinions that are relevant to the subject being discussed, are not welcome. That is too sad. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/68 "2014-09-02T20:39:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You do understand, don’t you, that I’m not asking if God IS fictional, just whether it is rational and logical to hold the _opinion_ that God is fictional? > > Do you fear to answer the question? Do you not know the answer to the question? Do you think there is more than one answer to the question? IMHO, “God is fictional” is a different sort of statement from “God is a fictional character.” The latter claim may be appropriate in a Café Society thread, but the former is not. > [@simster](#): > > But ‘God’ has been dealt with in fictional media - we’re not talking bible bookstores - we’re talking popular culture - Monty Python skits, magazines, movies, etc - so, as a charactor in popular fiction - (unless, again, someone is opining that those charactorizations are, in fact, God) - he should count for the Cafe Society question. > > Could the poster that brought it up been more clear? absolutely - but as an answer to the “most popular fictional charector” - God has to be in the running based on that alone. > > This has nothing to do with GOD (the belief in said entity) - but the fiction created around said entity. It is uncontroversially true that God has appeared as a character in works of fiction. So by that standard, at least, God could be counted as a fictional character (as could Abraham Lincoln). Although even there, I wonder if it’s strictly accurate to refer to God as **a** fictional character, as opposed to the different “versions” of God being considered different characters. I recall a Café Society thread (which I can’t find right now) asking for people’s favorite fictional Deaths (e.g. Death in Pratchett’s Discworld novels, Death in _Bill & Ted’s Bogus Journey_, etc.). Is Death _a_ fictional character, or are all those Deaths individual characters? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/69 "2014-09-02T20:48:21Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > IMHO, “God is fictional” is a different sort of statement from “God is a fictional character.” The latter claim may be appropriate in a Café Society thread, but the former is not. > > It is uncontroversially true that God has appeared as a character in works of fiction. So by that standard, at least, God could be counted as a fictional character (as could Abraham Lincoln). Although even there, I wonder if it’s strictly accurate to refer to God as **a** fictional character, as opposed to the different “versions” of God being considered different characters. I recall a Café Society thread (which I can’t find right now) asking for people’s favorite fictional Deaths (e.g. Death in Pratchett’s Discworld novels, Death in _Bill & Ted’s Bogus Journey_, etc.). Is Death _a_ fictional character, or are all those Deaths individual characters? exactly - God AS vs God IS. As to Death - same thing - there is clearly a fictional char called death, with many different characterizations. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/70 "2014-09-02T20:57:08Z")
Just because you don’t believe in Jesus or God or whatever doesn’t mean you have to bring it up in every thread. You are not proving or making any point. The mod note was spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/71 "2014-09-02T21:04:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To that end we have - or had? - a long-running series of Cafe Society threads called [“SDMB weekly Bible study”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=729645) that treated the Bible as a work of literature and evaluated it purely on that basis, which is kind of similar to what **twickster** is talking about here. I’d be surprised if we’ve never had a thread comparing the gods in various works of literature. I wasn’t aware of that thread; thanks. It looks interesting; I’ll check it out. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/72 "2014-09-02T21:16:56Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Just because you don’t believe in Jesus or God or whatever doesn’t mean you have to bring it up in every thread. You are not proving or making any point. > > The mod note was spot on. Are you denying that there have been fictional charectorizations of both Jesus and God in popular culture? Or is “Buddy Jesus” real as well? ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/73 "2014-09-02T21:30:04Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I’d say calling God a fictional character in some films is perfectly valid. Does anybody think the character of God as portrayed by George Burns or Morgan Freeman is an accurate representation of an existing being? In such good faith (no pun intended) cases you could say something like “God, as portrayed by George Burns”. But that’s obviously not what trolls intend when they they post “God” in such topics. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/74 "2014-09-02T21:33:34Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > In such good faith (no pun intended) cases you could say something like “God, as portrayed by George Burns”. Except that the thread in question specified, “Counting the numbers of different media where the character may have appeared, and the number of individual actors that may have portrayed him/her…” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/75 "2014-09-02T21:40:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Except that the thread in question specified, “Counting the numbers of different media where the character may have appeared, and the number of individual actors that may have portrayed him/her…” And I could have beaten Sherlock Holmes easily. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/76 "2014-09-02T22:01:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, I disagree. It’s basically trolling. Accusations of trolling should not be made outside the Pit, and the decision is to be made by Moderators. Please, no more of this. On the broader question: The question of whether God is fictional has been, and can be, discussed. There is, in fact, a current discussion thread (in GD) about whether the Bible is the word of God or is fiction. So, please, refrain from any high-horsing about how we’re not allowing discussion about the nature (fictional or real) of God. But it’s NOT appropriate in that thread. That was a listing thread about popularity (measured by number of appearances), not a theological thread about the meaning of God, nor a definitional thread about the meaning of “fiction.” The intrusion of God or Jesus as candidates could be viewed as trolling, or as thread-shitting, or witnessing (atheistic witnessing) orsimply as honest efforts to discuss the topic. That’s why **twickster** just issued a “let’s not go there” statement rather than Warnings. It was clearly going to lead to a hijack of major proportions. The only principle here that applies to other threads is the long-standing one that we like threads to (mostly) stay on topic and not be hijacked into foreign territory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/77 "2014-09-02T22:09:15Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Accusations of trolling should not be made outside the Pit, and the decision is to be made by Moderators. Please, no more of this. Good point. I also apologize if anything thinks this was directed at them, personally- rather than the practice as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/78 "2014-09-02T22:30:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Are you denying that there have been fictional charectorizations of both Jesus and God in popular culture? No, I am not. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/79 "2014-09-02T22:56:22Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Are you denying that there have been fictional charectorizations of both Jesus and God in popular culture? Again, there are ways in which this could have been part of the discussion. For instance: “Jesus has appeared in many films, including D W Griffith’s INTOLERANCE (1916) right up to Mel Gibson’s PASSION OF THE CHRIST (2004) and including musicals like JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR (1973)…” “God has been played by George Burns, and voiced by Burt Lancaster (in 1974’s MOSES THE LAWGIVER), I don’t know who voiced God in the DeMille films or…” There were ways in which this could have been part of the discussion. But the fact of a simple injection “God” or “Jesus is a candidate” in the actual thread required things be kept away from theological debate. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227/80 "2014-09-02T23:13:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You’re correct.I don’t wish to acknowledge that there are any places on the SDMB where logical and rational opinions that are relevant to the subject being discussed, are not welcome. > > That is too sad. There are plenty of discussion contexts where expression of logical and rational opinions will just be threadshitting - for example, in a thread titled “Could Superman beat The Wolverine?”, nobody is hoping someone will drop in point out that the contest would be impossible because neither character is real. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opining-that-jesus-or-god-are-fictional-characters-is-trolling-by-definition/697227.md?page=5)