# Opinion: Lia Thomas shouldn’t swim in the Womens team **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** olympic-sports-track\ **Created:** [March 4, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437 "2022-03-04T01:45:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/21 "2022-03-04T14:21:57Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > good story from Sports Illustrated: Thanks for the link. For most of Lia’s life the parents did not question his (then) identity as male. The article did not claim any physical ambiguity. The article then states that Lia made a life style choice and informed her parents and began dealing with the consequences of his choice. Most athletic competition is divided into gender defined categories. So, the solution to the emerging problem, is for the the Trans community to propose a new set of categories that best meet their competitive needs. A team of their own. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/22 "2022-03-04T14:35:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > A team of their own. So it would be separate, but equal? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/23 "2022-03-04T14:37:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And that seems fair but how would we go about judging whether competitive fairness has been impacted? That seems to be the key question. From my reading, the best practices are to include hormone testing with cutoff levels that bar participation, plus a time requirement since transition, and perhaps in any remaining questionable cases, a third party medical examination. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/24 "2022-03-04T14:38:51Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So it would be separate, but equal? As defined by the Trans participants ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/25 "2022-03-04T14:59:24Z")
I’m a swimmer so I have seen a lot about this. I’m still trying to figure out what kinds of records she is breaking. I don’t know about other sports, but swimming tends to have a lot of different records. There are world records, national records, team records, pool records, meet records, and even age group records. I’ve yet to really see what records she’s breaking. Her times are good, but she’d not make the Olympic team. After lots of looking I found her [top times](https://pennathletics.com/documents/2022/2/28/WSWIM_records_by_event_2021_22.pdf). And the division I times to make the [NCAA Division 1 Championships](https://swimswam.com/ncaa-publishes-division-i-2021-2022-national-championship-standards/). She only makes the A times in the 200 and 500, and those by a second or just over. I still don’t fully know what to think on this subject. But I really wish people would stop with the click bait headlines of breaking records. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/26 "2022-03-04T15:42:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > From my reading, the best practices are to include hormone testing with cutoff levels that bar participation, plus a time requirement since transition, and perhaps in any remaining questionable cases, a third party medical examination. Yes, and therein has lain the problem. It may be one, many or all of those to varying degrees for various sports. Throw into that the inherent muscular-skeletal benefits of male puberty which may be extremely difficult to mitigate by any methods. What does seem hard to swallow is that a person in the middle of the performance pack as one gender, leaps to the top of the pile in another. Whatever practices are put in place it seems to me that they should not drastically change a persons relative performance. I don’t think such a thing is possible though, nor is it likely to be acceptable to the various advocacy groups. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/27 "2022-03-04T15:59:39Z")
If the previous post is accurate and she’s not really breaking any significant records, then she’s just a very good (but probably not great or world-class) college swimmer. If so, I’m not convinced that’s a big negative effect on fair competition. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/28 "2022-03-04T16:15:16Z")
I’m sure the victories and records of the swimmers in that competition are considered “significant” to them. I don’t think anyone outside of that competition has the right to tell people what they should or should not consider to be important. “fair competition” must surely reference the individual competition in question. i.e. it is relative not absolute. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/29 "2022-03-04T16:28:26Z")
I’m not saying they’re definitely wrong – I’m saying I’m unconvinced. Stronger evidence is needed than just that she’s a good swimmer who sometimes wins. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/30 "2022-03-04T16:32:44Z")
Kind of like how a Nazi is just a white person who understands biology and reality? 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/31 "2022-03-04T16:32:54Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t think anyone outside of that competition has the right to tell people what they should or should not consider to be important. Which is why the people involved should propose a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/32 "2022-03-04T16:40:54Z")
Here’s a radical idea. Trans people are under a concerted political attack by reactionary elements. Trans kids, including some that I love deeply, are constantly demonized and exposed to hate speech. They are at astronomically high risk for being raped, murdered or sexually trafficked, of being homeless, of developing mental illness, addiction and AIDS. So let’s support the kids whose lives are at risk. If Karen is upset because she didn’t win the swim meet, boo fucking hoo. There are some theoretically interesting aspects of this discussion, and at some time in the distant future, when this question won’t be immediately used as a wedge issue by bigots trying to completely erase the existence of trans people, it might be reasonable to have a discussion about competitive balance in organized sports. As of now, that issue is so low on the priority list it doesn’t even merit discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/33 "2022-03-04T16:44:29Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m sure the victories and records of the swimmers in that competition are considered “significant” to them. The woman who’s record she broke in the [100 said this](https://swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-opts-for-100-free-over-1650-free-for-ncaa-championships/): > [@](#): > > At the Ivy League Championships, she swam the 100 free instead, where she won in 47.63. That broke the Harvard Pool Record, the Ivy League Championship Record, and the overall Ivy League Record in the event. Miki Dahlke, who previously held the Harvard Pool Record, spoke out in support of Thomas after that race to ESPN: > > “Records are made to be broken. I am a faster swimmer because of fast swimmers of the past, and the future of swimming will be faster because of the women at the top of the NCAA today,” Dahlke said. I’ve been skimming the times and have been trying to figure out how fast she really is. A quick look suggests that she could have held world records in long course swims 20 years ago, and in the case of the 1500 in 1978. I’ll have to see if I can make some conversions to fully check. I’d like to see more than just articles and people saying “She’s killing all the records” cause that’s not what’s happening, she’s breaking some school and pool records it looks like, but she still looks to be two seconds off of the world records for a 100, and almost a minute for a 1500. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/34 "2022-03-04T16:45:31Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Which is why the people involved should propose a solution That is indeed what the various sporting bodies are trying to do. It isn’t easy though. At some point the considerations of fairness and safety may reasonably preclude trans athletes for taking part in certain competition. If we trust those involved to come up with a solution then we should be prepared to accept what that solution might be. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/35 "2022-03-04T16:45:37Z")
If you don’t want a person of type X doing Y, then there are straightforward ways to get that done: 1. Support legislators that legislation that bans X from doing Y (of course the devil will be in the details of that legislation). 2. Support activities and actions that discourage X from doing Y. (For example, make it so Lia and people like her no longer want to participate in swimming. Perhaps this involves booing/protesting, public shunning/shaming. etc) 3. Support activities and actions that target those who enable X to do Y. (For example, withdrawing donations to the ADs that let X do Y., boycotting products that use X in advertising, etc) So you can use, legal, social, or financial methods to stop X from doing Y. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/36 "2022-03-04T17:19:04Z")
I agree with this assessment - trans people are equal to everyone else in every way, but the exception may be in participation in sports. I also agree hateful people are using this issue to develop some sort of wedge issue to punish trans people and trigger libs. I hope rational actors in this whole thing can develop sensible solutions that are fair and acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/37 "2022-03-04T17:32:15Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > It seems straightforward to me, but maybe I’m being reductive or something. If you believe trans women are women, then they should compete in women’s events. That’s it. Let’s say a particular event is declared to be open to women who were assigned female at birth: a woman who was assigned female at birth tries to sign up; and, believing she’s a woman, the officials allow it. And a woman who was assigned male at birth tries to sign up; and, believing she’s a woman, the officials — do _what,_ if they’re being straightforward or reductive or something? (Would it be legal to have an event like that?) ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/38 "2022-03-04T18:10:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And a woman who was assigned male at birth tries to sign up; and, believing she’s a woman, the officials — do _what,_ if they’re being straightforward or reductive or something? If the officials believe trans women are women, they let her compete; if they don’t, they don’t. Like, this feels like maybe an oversimplification as I’m saying it, but I’m not sure it’s any more complicated than this. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/39 "2022-03-04T18:16:18Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, those of you dismissing the link on the grounds that the website hosting it is a ‘hate group’ - do you think that the mother in the video is lying about her experiences? Misinterpreting something? Or do you think that the experiences themselves just aren’t that bad? > > In particular, if the video in question was truly removed from Spotify, YouTube and iTunes then it’s probably good that it was put up _somewhere_ don’t you think? So that people can look at it and make up their minds about the situation I dismissed the link because the headline reads, > ### Video of Mother of Penn Swimmer removed from YouTube, Spotify But before the story starts it notifies me, > \ ***Update: 4W contacted Women’s Declaration International on March 1, and later that day, the video of the talk from Mother of a Swimmer was back on their YouTube channel.** ~Max ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437/40 "2022-03-04T18:21:07Z")
Why can’t choices have consequences. We are all given a mixed bag of mental and physical issues to deal with. If dealing with those issues keeps us from doing other things it’s okay. A woman probably can’t be pregnant and win the cross-country championships. Both things can be good, positive things. Most average athletes I knew gave up athletics going into college. Could they have went to some random DIII school and played? Yes, buy why? They saw a bigger life ahead and wanted to work toward that. If you are telling me that the issue is so important that people are committing suicide because of it. Then stop and take care of the issue. Then you say sports are so important that you can’t give them up? Who doesn’t give up sports when real life gets in the way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-lia-thomas-shouldn-t-swim-in-the-womens-team/960437.md?page=3)