# Opinion on Vaccinations for Hospital Workers **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [July 30, 2021, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661 "2021-07-30T19:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/81 "2021-08-10T22:51:53Z")
The difference in hospitalization rates for vaccinated versus unvaccinated by state is given here. This is shocking. > **[See the Data on Breakthrough Covid Hospitalizations and Deaths by State...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html)** > > Coronavirus cases that send vaccinated people to the hospital or cause death have been relatively rare, a New York Times analysis of state data shows. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/82 "2021-08-10T22:55:49Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > getting the flu is not usually terrible Any time I hear someone say that, my first assumption (and I’m not saying it’s correct) is that the person has never actually had the flu. They had a really nasty cold or some type of stomach bug and assumed it was the flu. I don’t think it was in this thread but in one of the other threads I mentioned that I’m always amazed at the anti-vaxxers/covid deniers on facebook that use their job in the medical field to strengthen their point. That is, making a comment like “The vaccines don’t work/Fauci is a liar/covid hasn’t caused any deaths…and I should know, I’m a nurse at [local hospital]”. I mean, I understand why they’re saying that, but everytime I see it I think about how easy it would be to screenshot what they’re saying (and probably find them saying lots of other similar things) and send it to their employer. I’m guessing the office or medical group that employs them might not be thrilled having their name associated with anti-science rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/83 "2021-08-10T23:18:19Z")
The influenza strains chosen for the flu shot are the ones that make people really sick. When I was in medical school, there was a lady who worked there in the bog-standard cafeteria. Overhearing her bragging to a coworker, it seemed she had built up a successful home business selling alternative medicines based on her work and experience in the medical building and her long daily encounters with the doctors there. This is what she (told her friend that she) said to customers. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/84 "2021-08-10T23:32:52Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The difference in hospitalization rates for vaccinated versus unvaccinated by state is given here. This is shocking. Striking indeed. Thanks for linking that. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/85 "2021-08-10T23:33:41Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Sadly, this is an oversimplification. Often the nurse you might most want looking after you has this odd belief. Unfortunately, it might be similar to not wanting care from a highly competent Trump supporter. I get it, but things are more complex than that. If the nurse caring for me is anti-vaxx, I don’t trust them to follow standard protocol. An acquaintance is a former nurse-practitioner. She doesn’t believe in standard antiseptics, only silver nitrate, and that’s what she recommended to me when I badly scraped my knee. Would she have followed hospital protocol in treating a patient? Hard to say. She’s pretty passionate re: her Woo. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Overhearing her bragging to a coworker, it seemed she had built up a successful home business selling alternative medicines based on her work and experience in the medical building and her long daily encounters with the doctors there. That’s my acquaintance to a T. She’s making a mint selling shungite to the gullible. (Magical anti-5G!) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/86 "2021-08-12T16:24:15Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > As you noted, here in the Houston area, the Methodist system publicly fired a handful of employees who refused. And good riddance, I say. And that’s in Texas no less. I have mixed opinions on this. As you cited Houston Methodist, I wonder how short they are on nursing staff? It looks like they dropped [151 hospital workers](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/06/09/houston-methodist-hospital-workers-refuse-covid-vaccine-get-suspended/7616446002/), while giving some 600 employees exceptions (out of maybe 22,000 employees across eight hospitals). On a purely utilitarian basis if the nursing shortage is too severe it may not be worth it to fire unvaccinated nurses; with proper PPE and regular testing the risk of an unvaccinated nurse spreading the disease may be less than the risk of a facility being unable to save a patient due to lack of staff. The fact that there are hundreds of staff exempt from the rule - more than those fired for noncompliance - indicates that the hospital is confident in their ability to provide care even when an employee is unvaccinated. I will copy something from the breaking news thread, > [@Coronavirus COVID-19 (2019-nCoV) Thread - 2021 Breaking News](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/coronavirus-covid-19-2019-ncov-thread-2021-breaking-news/929428/2089): > > [Texas Hospitals Are Already Overloaded. Doctors Are ‘Frightened by What Is Coming.’ (yahoo.com)](https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-hospitals-already-overloaded-doctors-121726648.html) > > > [T]he vast majority of patients hospitalized in Texas are not vaccinated… > > > > To help manage the surge, Abbott appealed this week to health care workers outside the state to travel to Texas and help the overloaded hospitals. > > Here’s an idea: Let unvaccinated health care workers (nurses, etc.) who refuse to take the vaccine care for the unvaccinated patients who refused to take the vaccine. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/87 "2021-08-12T16:49:38Z")
For those who did not open my above link, in various states 0.2-3.5% of Covid deaths are in vaccinated people, and 96.5-99.8% of Covid deaths are in unvaccinated people. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/88 "2021-08-12T17:02:20Z")
I appreciate that, since I have used up my articles. Otherwise I’m just going off the numbers relayed to me at work about our local hospitals in Florida, which to my knowledge doesn’t report statewide breakthrough stats. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/89 "2021-08-12T19:28:07Z")
My school district just announced all employees are eligible for a $500 incentive for proof of vaccination (I already sent in a picture of my card!). We have 22,000+ employees, so it wasn’t cheap! It will be interesting to see how well the carrot works, here. $500 is enough for most people to notice! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/90 "2021-08-12T19:35:56Z")
If we’re going to allow unvaccinated healthcare workers, we may as well legalize drunk driving. Seriously, what’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/91 "2021-08-12T19:49:03Z")
In the "About Freakin’ Time department: [BC has just announced](https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/covid-19-provincial-health-officer-orders-all-long-term-care-facility-workers-to-be-vaccinated) that all workers in long term care facilities must be vaccinated. They have until October 12, and in the meantime, unvaccinated workters MUST be masked and tested regularly. Volunteers and outside personal care workers must be vaccinated as of today, or they are not allowed in full stop. From the article: “All the eight active COVID-19 outbreaks in long-term care settings in B.C. were caused by unvaccinated workers – including West Kelowna’s Brookhaven Care Centre outbreak with five sick residents and 17 staff and Cottonwoods Care Centre in Kelowna where eight residents and three staff are infected.” It’s about time that workers, including nurses in long term care were told to get vaccinated or leave. They do not have the right to cause sickness and death to others. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/92 "2021-08-12T19:52:08Z")
History? Public opinion? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/93 "2021-08-12T22:45:10Z")
Hell, if I’m a nurse and I have a genuine belief that injections of KCl are a good thing, then you can’t fire me if many of my patients mysteriously die under my care. It’s my freedom! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/94 "2021-08-13T08:32:07Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > On a purely utilitarian basis if the nursing shortage is too severe it may not be worth it to fire unvaccinated nurses; with proper PPE and regular testing the risk of an unvaccinated nurse spreading the disease may be less than the risk of a facility being unable to save a patient due to lack of staff. The fact that there are hundreds of staff exempt from the rule - more than those fired for noncompliance - indicates that the hospital is confident in their ability to provide care even when an employee is unvaccinated. Yeah, and then those unvaccinated nurses get covid and wind up in one of the in-very-short-supply hospital beds, which just adds to the problem. I have to wonder if a nurse who does not have an actual medical reason to avoid the vaccine would be properly compliant with PPE given they are already demonstrating a lack of understanding of infectious disease measures. You don’t know why those exemptions were issued by the hospital system. It could be each and everyone of those people has a medical reason to not take the vaccine, and most/all of them might have nearly no patient contact. I’m firmly in the camp that unless someone has a medical reason to not get the vaccination they have absolutely zero business around patients these days. Sure, you have a right to be an unvaccinated, irresponsible idiot. You do not have a “right” to a particular job. Don’t want a vaccine? Then you lose your nursing job. You can go work in a warehouse for Amazon or shop groceries for Instacart or sell crocheted dolls on Etsy for a living. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/95 "2021-08-13T12:04:52Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > The difference in hospitalization rates for vaccinated versus unvaccinated by state is given here. This is shocking. > > [See Covid Breakthrough Hospitalization and Death Rates by State - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html) Although that table contains data “since vaccination began”. So it’s mostly pre-delta data. I’d love to see data on current hospitalizations and recent deaths, and haven’t been able to find it anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/96 "2021-08-13T14:08:49Z")
I haven’t had coffee yet, so this isn’t a fully formed thought, but … **[Creative destruction](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/creativedestruction.asp)** comes to mind: > Creative destruction is the dismantling of long-standing practices in order to make way for innovation and is seen as a driving force of capitalism. Creative destruction is implicated in no end of social policy discussions. - “If we get rid of the bad cops, it’s going to be _awfully_ hard to find new cops. Meanwhile, the crime rates will soar.” - “If you fire your health care workers, during a pandemic, for refusing to take the vaccine that is well-established to drastically mitigate said pandemic and its effects, who’s going to take care of your sick people ?” One thing the US does far too well: makes piece with ‘the cost of doing business.’ Misery is a line item on many corporate spreadsheets (inarguably, including Health Care). As long as the other numbers make sense, misery stays. Being held hostage by the _Refusniks_ (who have no bona fide medical contraindications to the COVID vaccine) is a moral hazard. They are – wittingly or unwittingly – forcing us into a pretty thorny choice that may well involve: - lessening our ability to care for the sick by holding continued employment out as conditional upon accepting the vaccine, and - creating fewer sick people in the first place by getting the _Refusniks_ out of a position where they can create an excessive amount of new sick people. I lean toward the side of creative destruction, both in the health care workers _and_ the LEOs situations. We just have to understand that both may have human costs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/97 "2021-08-13T15:16:37Z")
My guess is good delta data will take three to five more months. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/98 "2021-08-13T15:25:32Z")
May not be enough, but every day the New York Times has a hospitalization map and its data. I don’t know if they’re archived or the data source. This doesn’t break out vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/99 "2021-08-13T15:43:57Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I have mixed opinions on this. As you cited Houston Methodist, I wonder how short they are on nursing staff? It looks like they dropped [151 hospital workers](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/06/09/houston-methodist-hospital-workers-refuse-covid-vaccine-get-suspended/7616446002/), while giving some 600 employees exceptions (out of maybe 22,000 employees across eight hospitals). It’s unclear how many of the 151 were nurses as opposed to other hospital workers, who could include secretarial staff, maintenance etc. I don’t care if my nurse or doc is a Trumpite or worships Zog while sacrificing goats in their backyard. Refusal to acknowledge and follow evidence-based medical practices, however, is a deal-breaker. I’m pleased to see that in my specialty, pathology, a sizable majority of docs identify as Democrats, along with other fields I respect, such as internal medicine and infectious disease (the latter was found to trend most strongly blue of any specialty). It doesn’t surprise me that most surgeons and urologists tilt Republican, given the notable percentage of assholes in those specialties. [http://www.physicianexecutiveleadership.com/article-of-the-week/2016/11/1/medical-specialties-divided-by-political-party-preference](http://www.physicianexecutiveleadership.com/article-of-the-week/2016/11/1/medical-specialties-divided-by-political-party-preference) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661/100 "2021-08-13T16:54:24Z")
Old joke: What’s the difference between a surgeon and God? God doesn’t think he’s a surgeon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinion-on-vaccinations-for-hospital-workers/947661.md?page=6)