# Opinions on Ayn Rand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588 "2017-04-02T15:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/1 "2017-04-02T15:14:51Z")
I considered putting this in GD because I have a feeling that is where it might end up. Doing some research yesterday I stumbled across Ayn Rand. At my age 68 I probably should have known more about her already but I just haven’t spent much time reading on those types of things until the past few years. I had heard of her but had no idea what she was about. I had complained many times that I could find bits and pieces of things I was working on but couldn’t find anything solid that ties it all together. When I stumbled across Ann Rand and started reading I found myself suddenly on a natural high. I felt like I had found my soul mate. I couldn’t get enough of her. It was as if I had found the co-writer I had been looking for and she had been going through my notes and essays. I couldn’t help but wonder why I hadn’t heard more about her and I didn’t have to go far to find how controversial and hated she was by some and loved by others. After reading some of her quotes presented by her detractors it was easy to see why. Isn’t this a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water? I plan to read everything I can find on her in coming months and I hope I can do it with an open mind rejecting and accepting premises based on their individual merit. I believe much of her work could be implemented into every day society, rehabilitation and even industry but because of her being so controversial everything seems to be rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/2 "2017-04-02T15:27:01Z")
Here’s what a Salon writer learned from reading “Atlas Shrugged”. > **[10 (insane) things I learned about the world reading Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"](https://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/10_insane_things_i_learned_about_the_world_reading_ayn_rands_atlas_shrugged_partner/)** > > The only thing that matters in life is how good you are at making money -- and other gems 1. All evil people are unattractive; all good and trustworthy people are handsome. 2. The mark of a great businessman is that he sneers at the idea of public safety. 3. Bad guys get their way through democracy; good guys get their way through violence. 4. The government has never invented anything or done any good for anyone. 5. Violent jealousy and degradation are signs of true love. 6. All natural resources are limitless. 7. Pollution and advertisements are beautiful; pristine wilderness is ugly and useless. 8. Crime doesn’t exist, even in areas of extreme poverty. 9. The only thing that matters in life is how good you are at making money. 10. Smoking is good for you. I can’t say I disagree much with finding these ideas in her works. But I’ve never been a fan of Rand’s writing. I felt a bit of attraction to her ideas back when I was a sophomore in college, but heck, I was a sophomore. That faded quickly. Paul Ryan is a big Rand fan. Which seems hard to square with a devout catholic faith, which he also proclaims. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/3 "2017-04-02T15:35:03Z")
The left hates Ayn Rand with the intensity of a thousand suns. SDMB is mostly a leftist board. Guess what kind of reaction you’re going to get here. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/4 "2017-04-02T15:43:44Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > ``` > Isn't this a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water? I plan to read everything I can find on her in coming months and I hope I can do it with an open mind rejecting and accepting premises based on their individual merit. I believe much of her work could be implemented into every day society, rehabilitation and even industry but because of her being so controversial everything seems to be rejected. > > ``` What of her work do you think could or should be implemented? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/5 "2017-04-02T15:44:17Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Here’s what a Salon writer learned from reading “Atlas Shrugged”. > [http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/10\_insane\_things\_i\_learned\_about\_the\_world\_reading\_ayn\_rands\_atlas\_shrugged\_partner/](http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/10_insane_things_i_learned_about_the_world_reading_ayn_rands_atlas_shrugged_partner/) > > 1. All evil people are unattractive; all good and trustworthy people are handsome. > > 2. The mark of a great businessman is that he sneers at the idea of public safety. > > 3. Bad guys get their way through democracy; good guys get their way through violence. > > 4. The government has never invented anything or done any good for anyone. > > 5. Violent jealousy and degradation are signs of true love. > > 6. All natural resources are limitless. > > 7. Pollution and advertisements are beautiful; pristine wilderness is ugly and useless. > > 8. Crime doesn’t exist, even in areas of extreme poverty. > > 9. The only thing that matters in life is how good you are at making money. > > 10. Smoking is good for you. > > I can’t say I disagree much with finding these ideas in her works. But I’ve never been a fan of Rand’s writing. I felt a bit of attraction to her ideas back when I was a sophomore in college, but heck, I was a sophomore. That faded quickly. > > Paul Ryan is a big Rand fan. Which seems hard to square with a devout catholic faith, which he also proclaims. Thse quotes are good examples of the things I reject. I feel she contradicted herself when saying things like this. The premises I did accept were based on her belief that we have a basic need to create value in ourselves to be happy. As I said earlier I have seen very little of her writing up to this point. Just quotes and excerpts from her books. I was even less impressed with those who took over her Ayn Rand Institute. But I still feel a lot of what she has to say carries a very important and applicable philosophy that could be well applied in todays world. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/6 "2017-04-02T15:57:18Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Thse quotes are good examples of the things I reject. I feel she contradicted herself when saying things like this. The premises I did accept were based on her belief that we have a basic need to create value in ourselves to be happy. As I said earlier I have seen very little of her writing up to this point. Just quotes and excerpts from her books. I was even less impressed with those who took over her Ayn Rand Institute. But I still feel a lot of what she has to say carries a very important and applicable philosophy that could be well applied in todays world. Okay, then, of the things that she said that you like are: 1. “we have a basic need to create value in ourselves to be happy.” 2. … what else …? And once you complete that list, my follow up question: Is there any other source of such values that don’t carry the burden of the reprehensible parts of Rand’s philosophy? Are there examples of ways that those values have been espoused or implemented by people or groups who significantly disagree with Rand? In other words, do you need Rand at all in order to preserve those values? And on top of that, what is your view of the opinion that Rand is a horrible novelist? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/7 "2017-04-02T15:59:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Here’s what a Salon writer learned from reading “Atlas Shrugged”. > [http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/10\_insane\_things\_i\_learned\_about\_the\_world\_reading\_ayn\_rands\_atlas\_shrugged\_partner/](http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/10_insane_things_i_learned_about_the_world_reading_ayn_rands_atlas_shrugged_partner/) > > 1. All evil people are unattractive; all good and trustworthy people are handsome. > > 2. The mark of a great businessman is that he sneers at the idea of public safety. > > 3. Bad guys get their way through democracy; good guys get their way through violence. > > 4. The government has never invented anything or done any good for anyone. > > 5. Violent jealousy and degradation are signs of true love. > > 6. All natural resources are limitless. > > 7. Pollution and advertisements are beautiful; pristine wilderness is ugly and useless. > > 8. Crime doesn’t exist, even in areas of extreme poverty. > > 9. The only thing that matters in life is how good you are at making money. > > 10. Smoking is good for you. > > I can’t say I disagree much with finding these ideas in her works. But I’ve never been a fan of Rand’s writing. I felt a bit of attraction to her ideas back when I was a sophomore in college, but heck, I was a sophomore. That faded quickly. > > Paul Ryan is a big Rand fan. Which seems hard to square with a devout catholic faith, which he also proclaims. Each of those things is a straw man. She did glorify smoking, but this was the 1950s remember, and she never claimed it was “good for you”. When her doctor told her she had to quit for health reasons, she quit. Also, _Atlas Shrugged_ is a work of fiction. It’s not a documentary. Would you criticize\* The Lord of the Rings\* because wizards don’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/8 "2017-04-02T16:04:54Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I still feel a lot of what she has to say carries a very important and applicable philosophy that could be well applied in todays world. And I still feel that some of her ideas are interesting, and are somewhat true for some people under some circumstances, but they don’t represent a ‘natural law’ or ‘universal truth’ on which we should be choosing to run other people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/9 "2017-04-02T16:10:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Atlas Shrugged_ is a work of fiction. It’s not a documentary. Would you criticize\* The Lord of the Rings\* because wizards don’t exist? It’s because it is fiction that I don’t want it used as a template for governance. The principles she puts down may be universally true in her fictional universe, but bear less of a correlation to reality to my world. I don’t criticize her writings as fiction, I can enjoy them as such. I’m just as nervous around her extreme followers as I am around that guy dressed like a tree who keeps shouting “Frodo lives!” and argues with you when you explain that Frodo would have soon died in the Blessed Realm. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/10 "2017-04-02T16:16:36Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > And I still feel that some of her ideas are interesting, and are somewhat true for some people under some circumstances, but they don’t represent a ‘natural law’ or ‘universal truth’ on which we should be choosing to run other people’s lives. I honestly have not read enough of her work at this point to say too much. But as far as running peoples lives I see it as the opposite, I think in todays society we struggle to attach value to ourselves and our self esteem struggles. I read a quote where she talked about not beating others, not competing but simply adding value. I think if more opportunity existed to find things we could add value to it would go a long way toward helping those in situations where maintaing self esteem was a stuggle. Minorities suffer here more than others. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/11 "2017-04-02T16:17:45Z")
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” - Ayn Rand, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/12 "2017-04-02T16:20:38Z")
I also saw several quotes on her comments about selfishness and greed. They are all based on sound principles and really just do a better job of explaing how most of us function anyway. I like the quote. " When we fall in love we fall in love with the way we feel about ourselves when we are with that special person" I think this could apply to all relationships and even the relationships we have with hobbies and creative pursuits. This was not Ayns quote but I think it says the same thing she is sayiong. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/13 "2017-04-02T16:22:01Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” - Ayn Rand, more or less. Another example of what I don’t buy into. I think she puts out a lot of garbage and a lot of good stuff. Sometimes we reject the whole product when only parts of it are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/14 "2017-04-02T16:22:09Z")
I enjoyed reading Atlas Shrugged, and, to a lesser extent, The Fountainhead. (Ellsworth Toohey was a cardboard villain, right out of a bad melodrama. In Atlas Shrugged, the overall economic situation was pretty much the real villain, and not any single “bad guy.”) The books are full of interesting people, doing and saying interesting things. They’re perfectly fine “soap opera” books. Rand’s notions about morality are absurd. She puts forward a childishly over-simplified model of human interactions, and proposes a moral code that would make human civilization impossible. She falls for a “zero sum” description of economics (just as our current administration fantasizes that, if Mexico earns more profits, then the U.S. must be losing.) Her philosophy starts out with the obvious – non-self-contradiction: A can never be not-A – and then immediately falls flat, being unable to deal with the issue of transformations. 2 + 2 can never not be 2 + 2 – but can 2 + 2 be 4? Her rules don’t address that, and, in fact, cannot. She created an iron rule, which leads nowhere. (Or, as is often true with foolish rules, she lets it lead here where she wanted to go in the first place. Her conclusion that a social safety net is an “anti-life principle” is a sterling example of her overreach.) The chapter in A.S. where the engineer of the train has to decide whether to go into the tunnel ought to be read in industrial administration classes. The engineers at Chernobyl faced a very similar situation in real life, and we know what the real-world consequences were. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/15 "2017-04-02T16:25:15Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I also saw several quotes on her comments about selfishness and greed. If you’re already a convert, why are you asking any questions here? I don’t think that, in the end, there is anything worthwhile in Rand’s writings or philsophy beyond a few vague exhortations, which she then takes off cliffs for thousands of pages. There are stirring passages in the Communist Manifesto, but it doesn’t make communism a good thing for any large set of mankind. There are ringing sayings in the little red book, but it doesn’t make Mao any less of a monster. Robert Heinlein wrote some of pithiest truims in modern lit, but it doesn’t make him a guru. Even Dianetics/Scientology starts with some evident truths about our human nature. Cherry-pick some of Rand’s ideas you like and progress with them on your own. Don’t waste time deep-diving in the sewer because of them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/16 "2017-04-02T16:32:25Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The left hates Ayn Rand with the intensity of a thousand suns. SDMB is mostly a leftist board. > > Guess what kind of reaction you’re going to get here. Have you ever actually read _Atlas Shrugged_? I’ve never read such a tedious, preachy book. The characters are so one-dimensional, so utterly humorless and have no personality to them whatsoever. The heros are perfect, beautiful, charming, and everybody loves them. The villains might as well just be hunchbacks twirling their mustaches. (And the NAMES this woman comes up with? Don’t even get me started. Wasn’t there one villain in _The Fountainhead_ called _Balph_?) I felt like kicking everybody in the crotch after reading all of that bullshit. It’s so laughable anyone would take her philosophy seriously, whatever your political leanings. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/17 "2017-04-02T16:36:28Z")
I started conducting a little field study several months ago as it relates to my book. This involved getting people to tell me there ideas about anything. If I felt the idea was comming right off the top of their head with no forethought I blew it off but if I felt it had been given some thought I would explore it with them whether or not I agreed with it. I am fortunate to be exposed to a lot of different people from diverse backgrounds and I shamelessly take advanatge of this. ``` What I was looking for here was to see how it would affect the dynamics of the relationship we had and also to see if they would up their game in future conversations. This would tell me how much they valued the interaction. The results suggest predictable and consistent reactions and gave me a bit more insight into the dynamics of idea sharing. Simply having ones idea validated added value to that persons life and for the opportunity to share their idea they were willing to pay a price, being having to listen to my thoughts. This is the impression I get form Ayn Rand. ``` ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/18 "2017-04-02T16:38:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I enjoyed reading Atlas Shrugged, and, to a lesser extent, The Fountainhead. (Ellsworth Toohey was a cardboard villain, right out of a bad melodrama. In Atlas Shrugged, the overall economic situation was pretty much the real villain, and not any single “bad guy.”) > > The books are full of interesting people, doing and saying interesting things. They’re perfectly fine “soap opera” books. > > Rand’s notions about morality are absurd. She puts forward a childishly over-simplified model of human interactions, and proposes a moral code that would make human civilization impossible. She falls for a “zero sum” description of economics (just as our current administration fantasizes that, if Mexico earns more profits, then the U.S. must be losing.) > > Her philosophy starts out with the obvious – non-self-contradiction: A can never be not-A – and then immediately falls flat, being unable to deal with the issue of transformations. 2 + 2 can never not be 2 + 2 – but can 2 + 2 be 4? Her rules don’t address that, and, in fact, cannot. She created an iron rule, which leads nowhere. > > (Or, as is often true with foolish rules, she lets it lead here where she wanted to go in the first place. Her conclusion that a social safety net is an “anti-life principle” is a sterling example of her overreach.) > > The chapter in A.S. where the engineer of the train has to decide whether to go into the tunnel ought to be read in industrial administration classes. The engineers at Chernobyl faced a very similar situation in real life, and we know what the real-world consequences were. I did get this same impression. I plan to reall all her novels, they are cheap LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/19 "2017-04-02T16:41:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Also, _Atlas Shrugged_ is a work of fiction. It’s not a documentary. Would you criticize\* The Lord of the Rings\* because wizards don’t exist? If there were people who read _The Lord of the Rings_ and then tried casting magic spells, that would be a fair comparison. Tolkien’s readers understand his fiction is not a guideline for how things work in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/20 "2017-04-02T16:47:17Z")
I actually knew Ayn Rand, personally. My suggestion is that you read _The Fountainhead,_ then _Atlas Shrugged,_ then her other fiction if you want. But remember, it’s fiction, not a philosophical treatise. After that, her non-fiction is optional. Get from her writings whatever you want (and there’s much to be gotten from it), but stay away from other people’s opinions, both pro and con. Hold on to her respect for reason and reality. Hold on to her worship of the noble individual. Hold on to her vision of a world in which people are free to do what they want, as long as they don’t hurt anyone else. But that doesn’t mean you have to accept everything she wrote as gospel. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=2)