# Opinions on Ayn Rand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588 "2017-04-02T15:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/41 "2017-04-02T18:48:31Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > No I don’t see that happening. I see a problem with the American black finding value in themselves in American Society , I think they need more and better opportunities to find things they can add value to enhancing their own value. Persistent sterotypes have excluded them from the main stream resulting in poverty that only perpetuates the sterotypes. Mhm … so having your voting rights and your current and future earning potential robbed by a list of crimes starting with things like … walking along railroad tracks … drinking and partying during the wrong hours … selling the products of home gardens on the wrong day of the week … talking back to the cops … looking the wrong way at a white woman … improperly walking along a public road … getting into a fight in high school … none of these things are indicative of an actual historical and currently existing system intended to criminalize a segment of the population … but … Things like … environmental protection laws … having to pay taxes to benefit “undeserving” people … universal health care … anti-discrimination laws … equal rights, civil rights and employee rights … mandatory accommodation for disabilities … mandatory vaccination … public health and safety laws … honesty in labeling requirements … all these things indicative of an ongoing conspiracy to criminalize otherwise productive citizens so as to suppress them. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/42 "2017-04-02T18:49:02Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I actually knew Ayn Rand, personally. My suggestion is that you read _The Fountainhead,_ then _Atlas Shrugged,_ then her other fiction if you want. But remember, it’s fiction, not a philosophical treatise. After that, her non-fiction is optional. Get from her writings whatever you want (and there’s much to be gotten from it), but stay away from other people’s opinions, both pro and con. > > Hold on to her respect for reason and reality. Hold on to her worship of the noble individual. Hold on to her vision of a world in which people are free to do what they want, as long as they don’t hurt anyone else. But that doesn’t mean you have to accept everything she wrote as gospel. I remember that you said that. I like Ayn Rayd mainly because she meshes nicely with my personal worldview. I was listening to BBC America a couple of weeks ago and it featured a segment on something that you mentioned before. She wasn’t just an author. She had a loyal band of followers and some of them became very influential themselves in many different fields later. One of them was a young Alan Greenspan who became Chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve from 1987 - 2006. I personally think people are too hard on her. I can understand not agreeing with her rather brutal philosophy but she was a Russian Jew whose family lost almost everything because of Lenin’s version of communism. There are probably future authors growing up in Cuba and Venezuela right now that also don’t have a very rosy view of socialist paradises either. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/43 "2017-04-02T18:51:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Also, _Atlas Shrugged_ is a work of fiction. It’s not a documentary. Would you criticize\* The Lord of the Rings\* because wizards don’t exist? Since brought up Tolkien… > [@John Rogers](#): > > – There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: _The Lord of the Rings_ and _Atlas Shrugged_. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. [link](http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/ephemera-2009-7.html) ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/44 "2017-04-02T18:56:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Mhm … so having your voting rights and your current and future earning potential robbed by a list of crimes starting with things like … walking along railroad tracks … drinking and partying during the wrong hours … selling the products of home gardens on the wrong day of the week … talking back to the cops … looking the wrong way at a white woman … improperly walking along a public road … getting into a fight in high school … none of these things are indicative of an actual historical and currently existing system intended to criminalize a segment of the population > > … but … > > Things like … environmental protection laws … having to pay taxes to benefit “undeserving” people … universal health care … anti-discrimination laws … equal rights, civil rights and employee rights … mandatory accommodation for disabilities … mandatory vaccination … public health and safety laws … honesty in labeling requirements … all these things indicative of an ongoing conspiracy to criminalize otherwise productive citizens so as to suppress them. > > Am I right? I don’t see your view at all. I do see laws not being fairly administred becuase of problems in our system that have not been ironed out but I don’t see any form of a conspiracy unless you would count public opinion and electing officials who espouse views that are perpetuating these problems. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/45 "2017-04-02T19:06:13Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I actually knew Ayn Rand, personally. panache45, what was she like in person? I remember reading somewhere that in spite of the way that she comes across as arrogant and grim and humorless in her writing and her actions, she could be charming, charismatic and magnetic to the people around her–which seems to be supported by the fact that she had a devoted inner circle. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/46 "2017-04-02T19:16:06Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > panache45, what was she like in person? I remember reading somewhere that in spite of the way that she comes across as arrogant and grim and humorless in her writing and her actions, she could be charming, charismatic and magnetic to the people around her–which seems to be supported by the fact that she had a devoted inner circle. I hate to dampen your optimistic expectations, but the worst people in history had an inner circle of devotees and people who thought they were charming, charismatic and perfectly lovely… when you could get them to stop talking about _work_. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/47 "2017-04-02T19:17:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Have you ever actually read _Atlas Shrugged_? I’ve never read such a tedious, preachy book. The characters are so one-dimensional, so utterly humorless and have no personality to them whatsoever. The heros are perfect, beautiful, charming, and everybody loves them. The villains might as well just be hunchbacks twirling their mustaches. (And the NAMES this woman comes up with? Don’t even get me started. Wasn’t there one villain in _The Fountainhead_ called _Balph_?) > > I felt like kicking everybody in the crotch after reading all of that bullshit. It’s so laughable anyone would take her philosophy seriously, whatever your political leanings. Agreed. My eyeballs were bleeding by the time I struggled through that self-indulgent, boring piece of crap. If ever someone defined “overrated”, it was Ayn Rand. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/48 "2017-04-02T19:55:22Z")
I had to read \*Atlas Shrugged \* in eighth grade and found tedious. I was happy to manage a B- on the test and happily gave my copy to the next poor bastard. Miss DrumBum was more fortunate and this book was nowhere to be found in her English classes. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/49 "2017-04-02T20:01:06Z")
I’m personally a fan of Ayn Rand’s philosophy, but not so much of her prose. But her ideas are interesting enough that I’m willing to wade through the amateurish writing. Many are not so willing, especially if the philosophy grates on them, and that’s fine. It’s true that leftists (like most on this board) despise her, but I figure that’s because she is such a proponent of individual responsibility, which is pretty much the opposite of having society take care of everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/50 "2017-04-02T20:02:45Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Some parts of Ayn Rand’s books are so apt to modern US state that you wonder if she was prescient. > > “Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt.” > > That’s the modern US governance system. It was not as developed back when this was written. She definitely predicted the direction it would take. So Rand is one of those responsible for stereotyping people whose ideas we don’t like as hateful conspiratorial ghouls? There’s way too much senseless demonization of The Enemy in modern life. I haven’t read any of Rand’s books. And if the above passage is supposed to be a recommendation, my priorities probably will continue lie elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/51 "2017-04-02T20:08:45Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I’m personally a fan of Ayn Rand’s philosophy, but not so much of her prose. But her ideas are interesting enough that I’m willing to wade through the amateurish writing. Many are not so willing, especially if the philosophy grates on them, and that’s fine. > > It’s true that leftists (like most on this board) despise her, but I figure that’s because she is such a proponent of individual responsibility, which is pretty much the opposite of having society take care of everyone. Which leftist on this board advocate against individual responsibility? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/52 "2017-04-02T20:11:51Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I started conducting a little field study several months ago as it relates to my book. This involved getting people to tell me \*\*there \*\*ideas about anything. If I felt the idea was \*\*comming \*\*right off the top of their head with no forethought I blew it off but if I felt it had been given some thought I would explore it with them whether or not I agreed with it. . . . > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I am curious how much my novel will relate to her work I would hate to be accused of **plagerism**. I am \*\*basicaly \*\*developing a giant worldwide collaboration driven by \*\*peoples \*\*self worth and desire to add value. . . . Let me know if you’re hiring a proofreader. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/53 "2017-04-02T20:12:31Z")
play a game called bioshock its considered to be the ultimate argument against randian theory …just be sure to read every thing theres some thesis’s online you might be able to still find that explains it also Then play bioshock two where they give the same treatment to marx … ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/54 "2017-04-02T20:18:40Z")
In her personal life, Ayn Rand was a hypocrite, manipulator, and narcissist. She bullied others into agreeing with statements based on her philosophy, and claimed successes on the backs of other peoples’ work. She largely slept her way into success as a screenwriter, and then pivoted that into a career of writing novels expressing a personal world view based on premises so fantastic that comparisons to Tolkien and Fleming do injustice to those authors. And also, she is an absolute terrible writer of dialogue. Even Hemingway, a guy who couldn’t write female characters to save his life’s would cringe at. That her works have been adopted by the neoconservative movement as some kind of guiding illustration of libertarian economics just highlights the obliviousness of the latter toward a critical examination of the implementation of their notions. Rand herself never attempted any such practical illustration of her philosophy, instead contesting herself with attacking members of her circle who she felt didn’t measure up. You would be better served intellectually and philosophically by reading a diet of Robert Ludlum novels, and by that I mean even the later books that were written by journeyman hacks under Ludlum’s name. She’s neither a good writer, philosopher, or human being. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/55 "2017-04-02T20:19:46Z")
This thread makes me almost wish I could read. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/56 "2017-04-02T20:25:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Which leftist on this board advocate against individual responsibility? :dubious: There are a lot of them. Just read one of the free will debates. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/57 "2017-04-02T20:27:44Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > Let me know if you’re hiring a proofreader. When I am actually writing I pay a lot more attention to detail. I don’t have spellcheck on this computer and it shows. My word program helps out quite a bit. But if I ever finish it I will likely be looking for a complete rewrite. My goal is to do a good enough job to attract a writer who can straighten it all out. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/58 "2017-04-02T20:31:39Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > There are a lot of them. Just read one of the free will debates. I _choose_ to stay out of them. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/59 "2017-04-02T20:32:52Z")
It is the work of the more powerful Rand fans, that make it important to learn about her and read her works. A few observations: - she developed her philosophy first, and then wrote her novels to illustrate it. So it isn’t quite…accurate to say that they are works of fiction, and that therefore the threats within their thinking can be ignored. - As with most philosophers and authors, her ideas about life and the world were shaped by her own experiences. It is also accurate to say that most philosophers and authors have their appreciations of the world DISTORTED by their experiences as well. ``` I am familiar with Rand as a person, only with what has been said about her by others, some of whom were critics, many of whom were near worshipers (some of each seem to be involved with this thread). Since I am a dedicated...not sure what to call myself..."logical actualist?" I am in the process of reading her works myself, and carefully as anyone can, keeping the opinions of others away from my judgment. ``` I HAVE read the Bible all the way through, and as an Historian, I am well familiar with the myriad of ways that people who CLAIM to be following its teachings, have sometimes even arbitrarily corrupted what it actually said. All of what I have read so far in Rand’s book Atlas Shrugged, seems to fit in with an author who’s life was tremendously affected by the tumult of the Russian Revolution. She also appears to be 100% enthralled (literally) by what historians call the “Great Man Theory” of human progress. That is the basic idea that human society is driven primarily by Great Individuals, and not by ideas, concepts, or by the large scale interactions of “lesser” peoples. She appears to carry this to an extreme that most historians actually avoid, though. The reason why some of her characters are so stiff or cartoonish, is precisely because they ARE only serving as cardboard cut-out spokes people for her to animate. So far in my reading of Atlas Shrugged, I have seen that she does as many modern right wingers do, in characterizing anyone who might be said to be on the “left” or “social conscience” side of things, to be abject hypocrites, idiots, fools, or outright traitors. She gets a minus 50 on her description of the reasoning, motivation, and actual proposals that people who she obviously despises, have put forward. I SUSPECT that this is a relatively logical result of how her own life was so negatively affected by the pure-propaganda excuses that early Communists gave for their actions in her home country. ``` I disagree with the claim someone else mentioned above, that Rand believed in ignoring safety in the name of profit. In the book I am reading now, safety that results from the use of the new metal that the story turns around, is a key component. What her rather cardboard bad guys were there to portray, was to use a PRETENSE of concern for safety, to hide what she made obvious was just corrupt use of government power to arrange for crony capitalism to succeed. That's something that I can agree with, although her presentation of it all is problematic for other reasons. ``` It is her absolute and completely blind support for Great Man ism that is most pervasively problematic. As too many people today still do, she excuses pretty much ANYTHING her “great men” do, on the grounds that their great purpose makes it imperative to allow them any and all errors in judgment. Much the way that the most fanatic modern Trump fans, excuse every lie, mistake and contradiction he generates, on the grounds that he embodies the Good and the Right in his essential character. An illustrative example which I think shows a classic contradiction for all Great Man -ists, is her apparent attitude about marriage vows. At one point, her main character is mildly praised for adhering to his, but soon after he is praised for ignoring them completely. The fact that her Great Man isn’t even held to HIS OWN standards, she passes by without concern, and without noticing that if he isn’t to be held to ONE of his claimed principles, that ALL of his claimed principles are thereby drawn into question. I’ve found that this sort of self-blinding habit is common to all the most zealous originators and followers of the more aggressive philosophies that plague the world. And most problematic for a good use of Rand’s ideas, the fact that she built in this double standard to her own ideas, is what makes her modern followers so dangerous. They take her blank check approach to Great Man -ism so much worse. Personal responsibility for even the most direct negative results of a Great Man, is completely excused, and is shifted to his victims, or to some blameless element of the “nature of history.” In short, I am not a FAN of Rand, so far. Her writing is uneven. Some of it is excellent, from an organization and story telling point of view, but it’s easy to see that she alternates between hurriedly splashing an over-simplified description of the portions of the story she isn’t interested in, and then all but gets sidetracked into self-indulgent exploration of side issues that she only chanced to need to write about at all, at other times. ``` At her best, she is an able narrative writer. At her worst, she is an obnoxious and careless propagandist. ``` ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/60 "2017-04-02T20:33:07Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > When I am actually writing I pay a lot more attention to detail. I don’t have spellcheck on this computer and it shows. My word program helps out quite a bit. But if I ever finish it I will likely be looking for a complete rewrite. My goal is to do a good enough job to attract a writer who can straighten it all out. you mean editor?.. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=4)