# Opinions on Ayn Rand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588 "2017-04-02T15:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/61 "2017-04-02T20:34:37Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I don’t see your view at all. I do see laws not being fairly administred becuase of problems in our system that have not been ironed out but I don’t see any form of a conspiracy unless you would count public opinion and electing officials who espouse views that are perpetuating these problems. So you quote a passage that posits a conspiracy on the part of the elite to subjugate the population by criminalizing otherwise innocuous behavior and then say that that’s what you think is happening in this society, but then you say you don’t believe that there is a conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/62 "2017-04-02T21:14:19Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > panache45, what was she like in person? I remember reading somewhere that in spite of the way that she comes across as arrogant and grim and humorless in her writing and her actions, she could be charming, charismatic and magnetic to the people around her–which seems to be supported by the fact that she had a devoted inner circle. She was - by far - the most radiantly intelligent person I’ve ever met. She made everyone else seem like chimps in comparison. To have an intellectual discussion with her was like playing chess with a grand master; she was always twenty steps ahead of you. And she must have been the world champion Scrabble player - in spite of the fact that English was her fourth language. By pure luck, I beat her once, and she was so happy for me, she danced around the room, singing. And her “sense of life”, her utter joy in being alive, was contagious, as were her love of cats and Godiva truffles. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/63 "2017-04-02T21:23:26Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > She was - by far - the most radiantly intelligent person I’ve ever met. She made everyone else seem like chimps in comparison. To have an intellectual discussion with her was like playing chess with a grand master; she was always twenty steps ahead of you. And she must have been the world champion Scrabble player - in spite of the fact that English was her fourth language. By pure luck, I beat her once, and she was so happy for me, she danced around the room, singing. And her “sense of life”, her utter joy in being alive, was contagious, as were her love of cats and Godiva truffles. That sounds like a great experience. Despite all of the popular hate (much of it unjustified IMO), I would have loved to hung out with her too. I hear she had quite a circle. I notice that she is still one of the most famous (or infamous) authors in the world. That has to count for something. Earnest Hemmigway is too but he had to get there through hard living, mutant cats and blowing his own head off with a shotgun. Ayn just had to write a couple of famous books and be herself. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/64 "2017-04-02T22:12:32Z")
\*\*HoneyBadgerDC \*\*–read more than one author! Try-- René Descartes, Baruch Spinoza, Nicolas Malebranche, Immanuel Kant, Marcus Aurelius - **don’t** just read one philosopher, & go all googy-eyed. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/65 "2017-04-02T22:18:55Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > \*\*HoneyBadgerDC \*\*–read more than one author! > > Try-- René Descartes, Baruch Spinoza, Nicolas Malebranche, Immanuel Kant, Marcus Aurelius - **don’t** just read one philosopher, & go all googy-eyed. :smack: She was the first one I had come across that seemed to be drawing the same comparisons that I was looking for. I find lots of authors touching on things but she seemed to tie them all together. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/66 "2017-04-02T22:36:20Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > She was the first one I had come across that seemed to be drawing the same comparisons that I was looking for. I find lots of authors touching on things but she seemed to tie them all together. So. _You only want to read that you agree-with._ > [@](#): > > I never learned from a man who agreed with me. > > ```Robert > > ``` **You have missed the purpose of philosophy, Grasshopper.** ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/67 "2017-04-02T22:40:49Z")
Any Rand is one of those few philosophers whose theories have been empirically debunked by the actual history of Western Civilization … or if you prefer … just American history by itself. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/68 "2017-04-02T22:42:38Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > So. > _You only want to read that you agree-with._ > > **You have missed the purpose of philosophy, Grasshopper.** Interesting you brought that up, I wasn’t looking for someone to learn from as much as I was someone who shared similar views but was so much better than I am about stating them. I am set on carrying a very specific hypothisis into my novel. I was also looking for some validation at some level even though she is very controversial. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/69 "2017-04-02T22:45:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > It’s because it is fiction that I don’t want it used as a template for governance. The principles she puts down may be universally true in her fictional universe, but bear less of a correlation to reality to my world. I don’t criticize her writings as fiction, I can enjoy them as such. I’m just as nervous around her extreme followers as I am around that guy dressed like a tree who keeps shouting “Frodo lives!” and argues with you when you explain that Frodo would have soon died in the Blessed Realm. 😃 Well, I’ve never understood the need to criticize her for the behavior of “Randites”. Not saying you’re doing that, but one does see a lot of that on this MB whenever the topic of her books come up. But if you were looking to get a “template of governance” from her writings, you’d be better off referring to her many works of non-fiction. For those thinking about reading her fiction, I’d agree with **panache** that _The Fountainhead_ makes a better first read than _Atlas_. Enjoy or don’t enjoy the fiction, but just remember: you’re not Howard Roark, John Galt or Dagney Taggert. Those are fictional characters. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/70 "2017-04-02T23:08:19Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > panache45, what was she like in person? I remember reading somewhere that in spite of the way that she comes across as arrogant and grim and humorless in her writing and her actions, she could be charming, charismatic and magnetic to the people around her–which seems to be supported by the fact that she had a devoted inner circle. Yeah. So are cult leaders. My impression about her is that she was very logical with a powerful personality. But she also seemed very narcissistic and spiteful. Particularly when people or real life didn’t fall neatly in line with her Objectivism philosophy. And her inner circle does sound like the classic definition of a “cult” (Come on panache45. No one is that fucking charming.) Ayn Rand isn’t even her real name (it’s Alissa Rosenbaum). > [@panache45](#): > > Hold on to her respect for reason and reality. Hold on to her worship of the noble individual. Hold on to her vision of a world in which people are free to do what they want, as long as they don’t hurt anyone else. But that doesn’t mean you have to accept everything she wrote as gospel. I’ve only read Atlas Shrugged (and played BioShock). Whatever her actual personality, this is my understanding of what she considered her core “premises.” Many of them are very appealing to ambitious, entrepreneurial people with backgrounds in science, engineering, finance and other fields dependent on using facts, logic and reason to make decisions. FWIW, I kind of feel like the film The Aviator about Howard Hughes is one of the more Ayn Randian movies I’ve seen. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Paul Ryan is a big Rand fan. Which seems hard to square with a devout catholic faith, which he also proclaims. He might also enjoy BioShock: Infinite with it’s themes of a militant pseudo-Christian utopia. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/71 "2017-04-02T23:09:39Z")
I was quite a fan of Ayn Rand after I discovered her books as a teenager. I appreciated many of the points that have been raised here, about living up to one’s potential, about the downward pressure of mediocrity on creativity, about what things are human rights vs. what things are not, and about the potential consequences of blurring that distinction. At some point, I began to see another point of view, about how we all live in society, and how it is to my advantage to have a contented and healthy society to live in vs. one where the losers lose completely. I no longer resent the taxes I pay that are spent towards these ends (I still resent the taxes that go to waste and corruption). I probably did not live up to my full potential but I was pretty good at not being a burden on anyone else, and somehow that makes it easier for me to be OK with helping out other people. I think one of Rand’s problems was that she had too dark a view of human nature, that if you weren’t among the achieving elite or their immediate followers (I always identified with Eddie Willers myself, the faithful but ultimately helpless secretary) you were evilly intent on bringing down those who could do things you couldn’t do. I don’t think that’s even close to being true. I also note that her heroes were people who actually produced things of value, unlike many of her rich followers today who merely worship money, and who tend to get it by banking and investing tricks. These are some of my thoughts and opinions on Ayn Rand. There is a lot of bilge in the ficton, and there are some pearls in the philosophy that deserve at least a pork chop in return (crediting Frank O’Connor for that phrase). ---
**Author:** ![Fredescu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/73ab20/32.png) [@Fredescu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredescu)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/72 "2017-04-02T23:54:47Z")
Ayn Rand’s philosophy is a house of cards based on some faulty assumptions about the “nature of man” that she makes little attempt to justify. For example, the notion that humans are born “tabula rasa” with no innate social instincts stands firmly against much of our scientific knowledge of the subject. She encourages her readers against questioning this by calling into question all science that does not have her philosophy as it’s basis, and by claiming to be a champion of reason. I think people spend so much time arguing her ethics and politics, but nothing you say at that level will have any effect on anyone who agrees with her whole philosophy already, because Rand linked everything back to her flawed conception of “the nature of man” (and she claims to her metaphysics and epistemology, but the link between her epistemology and her ethics is tenuous if it even exists at all). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/73 "2017-04-02T23:57:59Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > Rand was a solipsist. > Yet we’re still here, **hmmmm** Well, **I’m** still here at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/74 "2017-04-03T00:04:10Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I think one of Rand’s problems was that she had too dark a view of human nature, that if you weren’t among the achieving elite or their immediate followers (I always identified with Eddie Willers myself, the faithful but ultimately helpless secretary) you were evilly intent on bringing down those who could do things you couldn’t do. I don’t think that’s even close to being true. You make some good points but again, her family had to leave Mother Russia because of the brutalities of the Russian Revolution. She found some reprieve in the U.S. and used her freedom to write against totalitarianism and the virtues of self-guidance. I don’t think you can find fault with someone that hates communism or socialism because they experienced the horror of something like that personally. I understand it intuitively and I never lived through it. The difference is that many of us don’t find human nature inherently good. I personally believe that most of human nature is just as tribal, brutal and selfish as it has been since the neolithic age and could melt down at any time. The only people you can truly trust are yourself and your inner circle. That isn’t a positive viewpoint but it is one that gets reinforced every day for me at least. It is also the key to understanding left versus right political thinking. There is no “us”, only me and my family. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/75 "2017-04-03T00:14:50Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Some parts of Ayn Rand’s books are so apt to modern US state that you wonder if she was prescient. > > “Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt.” > > That’s the modern US governance system. It was not as developed back when this was written. She definitely predicted the direction it would take. Wow. The first arbitrary law that came to mind that could possibly be the sort of law you reference is North Carolina’s recent law against certain women using women’s restrooms. Is that the sort of law you have in mind? If not, what the heck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Fredescu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/73ab20/32.png) [@Fredescu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredescu)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/76 "2017-04-03T00:23:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is that the sort of law you have in mind? If not, what the heck are you talking about? The sort of law Rand had in mind was anti trust. She saw it as a law against success, and that to follow it you had to try not to be too successful, which is kind of impossible. She argued against it using a deliberately obtuse interpretation of “monopoly”. She loved the argument that company x is not a monopoly because tiny powerless company y also exists. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/77 "2017-04-03T00:27:06Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > You make some good points but again, her family had to leave Mother Russia because of the brutalities of the Russian Revolution. She found some reprieve in the U.S. and used her freedom to write against totalitarianism and the virtues of self-guidance. I don’t think you can find fault with someone that hates communism or socialism because they experienced the horror of something like that personally. > > I understand it intuitively and I never lived through it. The difference is that many of us don’t find human nature inherently good. I personally believe that most of human nature is just as tribal, brutal and selfish as it has been since the neolithic age and could melt down at any time. The only people you can truly trust are yourself and your inner circle. That isn’t a positive viewpoint but it is one that gets reinforced every day for me at least. It is also the key to understanding left versus right political thinking. There is no “us”, only me and my family. I can understand why she went in that direction while still believing that she took her views too far. And by saying I thought her view of human nature was too dark, I didn’t mean to imply that there is no darkness there. Yes, humans are (probably innately) tribal; the trick is to enlarge your concept of your tribe to include more than just your immediate circle. Anyway, I think my point was that her view _vis-à-vis_ the creative and constructive vs. everyone else is too simplistic. There are lots of people who, if they can’t make innovative advances in human progress themselves, fully appreciate those who do, and are willing to give them their due - including paying for whatever it is rather than appropriating it by government fiat. Imagine what would happen if someone invented a new practical metal to replace steel in today’s world, as distinct from what happened in Atlas Shrugged. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/78 "2017-04-03T01:29:22Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” - Ayn Rand, more or less. Compared to Rand, Crowley was a powerful force for Good. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/79 "2017-04-03T10:44:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I _choose_ to stay out of them. That’s what _you_ think. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/80 "2017-04-03T11:27:53Z")
> [@Fredescu](#): > > The sort of law Rand had in mind was anti trust. She saw it as a law against success, and that to follow it you had to try not to be too successful, which is kind of impossible. She argued against it using a deliberately obtuse interpretation of “monopoly”. She loved the argument that company x is not a monopoly because tiny powerless company y also exists. She was really against any law that redistributed wealth, restricted trade, penalized a company to favor another out of a sense of “fairness” or “altruism” or blocked technology that was disruptive to the status quo. Which, like most businesspeople, I tend to agree with…in theory. The problem with her philosophy, however, is that it’s so absolute: - All laws are only created to enslave producers. They are never created to prevent those companies from harming others. - Her heroes are brilliant incorruptible entrepreneurs while her antagonists are corrupt petty bureaucrats. Never anything in between. - Her heroes are universally awesome at everything. Never flawed. At least not flawed in any way that fails to justify their ability to make a profit. - Resources never run out. - There is never any risk or uncertainty with any of her hero’s ventures. - There are never any unintended consequences. - No side effects, pollution, health or safety risks or tradeoffs of any kind. Her heroes and there ideas are universally recognized as “better”. In the real world, things are not so cut and dried as they are in Atlas Shrugged. > [@Roderick Femm](#): > > Imagine what would happen if someone invented a new practical metal to replace steel in today’s world, as distinct from what happened in Atlas Shrugged. You don’t have to imagine. Look at Uber or AirBnB or any other disruptive technology. Look at the actual American steel industry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=5)