# Opinions on Ayn Rand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 2, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588 "2017-04-02T15:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/121 "2017-04-04T00:50:00Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > There is a lot of truth to what you are saying but I don’t think there is a conscious effort at discriminating against blacks. There is a lot of conscious discrimination, but there is also a lot of unconscious discrimination. Unconscious discrimination by white people is something that only _white_ people can cure. > [@](#): > > The prejudice is there no doubt but a lot of it has to do with the preponderance of bad experiences people are having with blacks. White people in general viewing blacks objectively would not think that the _preponderance_ of their experiences with black people are bad. It’s because of several different kinds of societal factors, and it’s something that happens in the minds of white people. > [@](#): > > All blacks end up paying a price for what the more visible minority of them are doing. Why are they “more visible”? It’s because the media make them more visible. It’s because white people engage in confirmation bias of their prejudices that they choose those things themselves as the ones that they consider “more visible.” > [@](#): > > Blacks are more easily identifiable and there is more of a tendency to lump them together. The blacks themselves will have to negate the effects of the stereo typing. More solid roll models like president Obama are a very important step in this process. I don’t think it is a fault thing as much as it is a human nature thing. Tough problem that has really been under addressed. Black people as a whole cannot ever guarantee that no black person will engage in negative behavior. Black people as a whole cannot ever choose which specific black people’s behavior white people will choose to pay attention to and remember. Your Obama example only shows that a black person has to be a superstar in order to measure up to a mediocre white person. > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I think blacks are misrepresented by a significant portion of the black community. There still is a very significant portion of the black community that operates outside the bounds of what is considered socially acceptable. They are simply more visible than blacks doing the right thing which no one notices. I also believe that most of this is based in low self esteem which is very understandable. This is blaming the majority of blacks for the behavior of a minority of blacks. This is something that white people don’t have to worry about, because white people never have to answer for the behavior of a minority of white people. And when you say “blacks are misrepresented by a significant portion of the black community,” I think you should be saying “_whites_ misrepresent blacks by holding up the behavior of a minority of blacks as being representatives of blacks as a whole.” What is happening with respect to misrepresentation is not because _black_ people are doing something to _themselves_. It’s because of something that’s being done _to them_ by white people. > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I wish we had a like button here, I agree with you. If you actually agree with Eschereal’s analogy, then what you are saying in this thread is hard to make sense of. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/122 "2017-04-04T01:48:42Z")
> [@Fredescu](#): > > For her, the state was such a bogeyman, and businessmen were such heroes, that I don’t think she ever even approached the topic of a world where there was _too much_ power held by business. For her there was a mystical faith that self interest, if set free, would work out better for everyone. It’s not hard to find examples of that being disastrously false. She wrote a book where government regulation and incompetence led to a massive rail disaster. Because in real life, corporations never take shortcuts that put profit ahead of safety. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/123 "2017-04-04T01:58:07Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And she was still making public speeches almost until her death. Her last speech at the Ford Hall Forum was in 1981. I was there. Given your past history with her I’m glad you were able to be there. I hope you were able to say hello. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/124 "2017-04-04T02:01:28Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There is a lot of conscious discrimination, but there is also a lot of unconscious discrimination. Unconscious discrimination by white people is something that only _white_ people can cure. > > White people in general viewing blacks objectively would not think that the _preponderance_ of their experiences with black people are bad. It’s because of several different kinds of societal factors, and it’s something that happens in the minds of white people. > > Why are they “more visible”? It’s because the media make them more visible. It’s because white people engage in confirmation bias of their prejudices that they choose those things themselves as the ones that they consider “more visible.” > > Black people as a whole cannot ever guarantee that no black person will engage in negative behavior. Black people as a whole cannot ever choose which specific black people’s behavior white people will choose to pay attention to and remember. Your Obama example only shows that a black person has to be a superstar in order to measure up to a mediocre white person. > > This is blaming the majority of blacks for the behavior of a minority of blacks. This is something that white people don’t have to worry about, because white people never have to answer for the behavior of a minority of white people. > > And when you say “blacks are misrepresented by a significant portion of the black community,” I think you should be saying “_whites_ misrepresent blacks by holding up the behavior of a minority of blacks as being representatives of blacks as a whole.” > > What is happening with respect to misrepresentation is not because _black_ people are doing something to _themselves_. It’s because of something that’s being done _to them_ by white people. > > If you actually agree with Eschereal’s analogy, then what you are saying in this thread is hard to make sense of. I have news for you, whites are not the only one that develop those apprehensive feelings. Other blacks do as well towards blacks they suspect pose a threat. Fair doesn’t count for much, right or wrong doesn’t count for much. The problem will not be resolved until mainstream society no longer has a reason to be apprehensive. This puts an unfair burden on blacks I agree 100% but it is a burden only they can resolve. And yes as whites we need to keep calling attention to it and do our part but no free passes. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/125 "2017-04-04T02:07:15Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have news for you, whites are not the only one that develop those apprehensive feelings. Other blacks do as well towards blacks they suspect pose a threat. Fair doesn’t count for much, right or wrong doesn’t count for much. The problem will not be resolved until mainstream society no longer has a reason to be apprehensive. This puts an unfair burden on blacks I agree 100% but it is a burden only they can resolve. And yes as whites we need to keep calling attention to it and do our part but no free passes. You’re just piling stereotypes and prejudices on top of each other and calling them facts. Black people can’t resolve a burden that they didn’t create. And WTF is free passes supposed to mean? White folks get free passes all the time just for being white? Are you taking those away? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/126 "2017-04-04T04:24:11Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have news for you, whites are not the only one that develop those apprehensive feelings. Other blacks do as well towards blacks they suspect pose a threat. Fair doesn’t count for much, right or wrong doesn’t count for much. The problem will not be resolved until mainstream society no longer has a reason to be apprehensive. This puts an unfair burden on blacks I agree 100% but it is a burden only they can resolve. And yes as whites we need to keep calling attention to it and do our part but no free passes. Oh my. Two points: (1) Blacks develop prejudices against blacks in part because _our society trains that_. (2) Many problems, including street crime, correlate more strongly with economic status than with race. The fact that poverty is prevalent among blacks is largely due to a vicious circle featuring prejudice. I would say that it is _society_ that needs to improve, rather than black people or white people specifically. But given the ignorance you show here, I think it fair to stress the thinking changes required from prejudiced white people. And it confirms my own prejudices to see such ignorant sentiments voiced by someone who found Ayn Rand’s ideas enticing! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/127 "2017-04-04T04:29:24Z")
Disclaimer: When I was in high school, an Ayn Rand fan-girl latched onto me. (She also disliked people who listened to Bob Dylan.) I was too shy and insecure to tell her it was her cute friend I lusted after. 🙂 Meanwhile, said cute friend made out with every boy in our clique … except me: I was off-limits, “belonging” to the Ayn Rand girl. Maybe this helps explain my antipathy for Ayn Rand. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/128 "2017-04-04T04:33:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Given your past history with her I’m glad you were able to be there. I hope you were able to say hello. No “hello”. By that time, I had long since been banished for being “hopelessly irrational”. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/129 "2017-04-04T04:38:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Oh my. Two points: > (1) Blacks develop prejudices against blacks in part because _our society trains that_. > (2) Many problems, including street crime, correlate more strongly with economic status than with race. The fact that poverty is prevalent among blacks is largely due to a vicious circle featuring prejudice. > > I would say that it is _society_ that needs to improve, rather than black people or white people specifically. But given the ignorance you show here, I think it fair to stress the thinking changes required from prejudiced white people. > > And it confirms my own prejudices to see such ignorant sentiments voiced by someone who found Ayn Rand’s ideas enticing! 😛 I don’t disagree with you as to what is right and fair, I just feel the most effective strategy will come from the inside. great roll models are a good start. I detest racism and consider it a huge human tragedy. Awareness is a good start but it doesn’t seem to be going anywhere, we are not integrating the way we should be, people are still apprehensive. Anything to alleviate the apprehensiveness will go a long way toward ending racism. I hate to use the term both sides because we are all really on the same side but blacks in general will bear more of the burden simply because they stand to bear more of the burden. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2017, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/130 "2017-04-04T04:55:23Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > No “hello”. By that time, I had long since been banished for being “hopelessly irrational”. I’m sorry to hear that. But thanks for the update. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/131 "2017-04-05T00:01:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m sorry to hear that. But thanks for the update. I knew her over 50 years ago. I’ve gotten over it. And **HoneyBadgerDC** : I always find it interesting when an OP participates in a hijack of his own thread. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/132 "2017-04-05T00:22:12Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I knew her over 50 years ago. I’ve gotten over it. > > And **HoneyBadgerDC** : I always find it interesting when an OP participates in a hijack of his own thread. ``` I got a good cross section of opinions. I am still interested in finding out out more about her. I am not so sure how much of it I will accept. I didn't see it as a total hijack, racial issues play into the aspect of her theories that I am interested in. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/133 "2017-04-05T23:55:39Z")
I was very disappointed in the chapter on her in Michael Shermer’s “Why People Believe Weird Things.” It was mostly a slam at her personality, her cult/clique, her weird behavior, and so on. He didn’t actually analyze Objectivism to demonstrate its flaws. Is there a good resource that does this? A book or essay or even a blog that takes apart Objectivism without making it all about Rand? ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/134 "2017-04-06T00:02:21Z")
Ayn Rand. Huh. I find her writing so turgid and impenetrable that I’ve never managed to finish _anything_ of hers I’ve tried. Maybe if she were a better writer, I’d have some opinion on her political beliefs. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fredescu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/73ab20/32.png) [@Fredescu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredescu)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/135 "2017-04-06T00:38:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Is there a good resource that does this? A book or essay or even a blog that takes apart Objectivism without making it all about Rand? This essay [Unapologetica: A Systematic Refutation of Objectivism](http://unapologetica.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/a-systematic-refutation-of-objectivism.html) based on this book [https://www.amazon.com/Without-Prayer-Rand-Close-System/dp/0940931508](https://www.amazon.com/Without-Prayer-Rand-Close-System/dp/0940931508) is worth a read. Also this blog [http://aynrandcontrahumannature.blogspot.com.au/](http://aynrandcontrahumannature.blogspot.com.au/) based on this book [Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature: Nyquist, Greg: 9780595196333: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Ayn-Rand-Contra-Human-Nature/dp/0595196330/) is pretty good too. I’d recommend reading the blog by tag rather than chronologically. I haven’t read either of the books but you can get a good sense of them from the sites. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/136 "2017-04-06T02:21:05Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I didn’t see it as a total hijack, racial issues play into the aspect of her theories that I am interested in. In 1963 she wrote a lengthy essay denouncing racism as “the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism.” It was reprinted as one of the chapters in _The Virtue of Selfishness._ ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/137 "2017-04-06T02:46:36Z")
Atlas shrugged is an 1,100 page strawman. The only thing that anyone should take seriously from it is the idea that people should try to do things to the best of their ability. Everything else is utter bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/138 "2017-04-06T02:49:25Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > In 1963 she wrote a lengthy essay denouncing racism as “the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism.” It was reprinted as one of the chapters in _The Virtue of Selfishness._ She also hated Native Americans and thought it was righteous for white Europeans to steal their land because they didn’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/139 "2017-04-06T02:50:47Z")
My primary premise that I don’t know how Ayn Rand feels about is that when individuals do discover a source for increasing their own value they will fiercely defend it, primarily by stepping up to the plate and working harder, becoming better at it. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588/140 "2017-04-06T03:21:30Z")
A moron. There’s a reason serious philosophers laugh at her: her “ideas” are 100% substance- and thought-free. They’re internally contradictory and externally divorced from reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opinions-on-ayn-rand/783588.md?page=8)