# Opponents of public health care.. oops, "socialized medicine" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335 "2009-07-26T17:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/121 "2009-08-01T22:07:47Z")
Oh, hell, they would have been fine if they had walked just half the way! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/122 "2009-08-01T22:29:43Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > The ones who didn’t leave **couldn’t** leave. How the hell do you evacuate when you don’t own a car, don’t have the money to put your whole family on a bus – never mind that tickets were sold out and then service was suspended – and people who do have cars have filled them up with their own families and can’t take yours along? I don’t see anything in your post addressing personal responsibility. If they had any, they would have left, by hook or by crook, if not for themselves, then for their children. Instead, they waited around (until it was too late) and then expected the government to take care of them. This is what happens when society treats generations of people with the contempt of low expectations. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/123 "2009-08-01T22:45:42Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > I don’t see anything in your post addressing personal responsibility. If they had any, they would have left, by hook or by crook, if not for themselves, then for their children. Please dig into your depthless Bag of Personal Responsibility and throw out two or three reasonable examples of how someone with no transportation and no money might accomplish this. I’m honestly curious. No “they’d have a car if they were personally responsible,” please. You’re poor, no car, no bus, no nowhere to go, and you and your family have to leave town immediately. _Go._ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/124 "2009-08-01T23:20:26Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > What would you have these people do? Walk to Baton Rouge? And the ones that tried were [turned back at gun point.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/15/60minutes/main1129440.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/125 "2009-08-01T23:40:48Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > I don’t see anything in your post addressing personal responsibility. If they had any, they would have left, by hook or by crook, if not for themselves, then for their children. HOW? You can spout this platitude until you’re blue in the face, but you’re not addressing the fundamental question of how someone is supposed to leave a city with a hurricane bearing down on them when they do not have any means of transportation. No cars. No busses. No taxis. How do they do it? Are you honestly asserting that they should have walked 100+ miles to safety, with their children? (And screw the ones who couldn’t walk?!) If not, then what are you asserting that they should have done? You can’t glibly say “they should have found some way” unless you can honestly name at least one way that’s actually meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/126 "2009-08-01T23:55:01Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > HOW? > > You can spout this platitude until you’re blue in the face, but you’re not addressing the fundamental question of how someone is supposed to leave a city with a hurricane bearing down on them when they do not have any means of transportation. No cars. No busses. No taxis. How do they do it? Are you honestly asserting that they should have walked 100+ miles to safety, with their children? (And screw the ones who couldn’t walk?!) > > If not, then what are you asserting that they should have done? You can’t glibly say “they should have found some way” unless you can honestly name at least one way that’s actually meaningful. And certainly don’t say “by hook or by crook,” which includes the possibility of illegal and/or immoral activity. Can you imagine the freak out by CS and her ilk then? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/127 "2009-08-02T00:21:20Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > HOW? > > Are you honestly asserting that they should have walked 100+ miles to safety, with their children? (And screw the ones who couldn’t walk?!) I’m not talking about the infirm. But yes, let’s talk about the children. Their parents bear 100% of the responsibility for protecting their life, health, and well-being. Not the government. Yet, said “parents” remained in a mandatory evacuation zone, with a CAT 5 hurricane bearing down on the city. How is that not child endangerment? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/128 "2009-08-02T00:55:48Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Yet, said “parents” remained in a mandatory evacuation zone, with a CAT 5 hurricane bearing down on the city. How is that not child endangerment? Isn’t that a criminal act? Therefore, the parents should be arrested, and the children… Let’s see, what does the state do with children of incarcerated parents? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/129 "2009-08-02T02:02:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Let’s see, what does the state do with children of incarcerated parents? I dunno, place them with a family that actually looks out for their well-being? Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/130 "2009-08-02T02:22:52Z")
My admiration for people who provide healthy and wholesome foster care is unflinching. Without getting heated about it, suffice to say they are too few. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/131 "2009-08-02T02:25:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What’s to “get”? People who got nothin’, got nothin’. They don’t have anything to give to their loved ones, or to themselves, or to anybody. What do you think, they drove down there in their Cadillacs to sign up for food stamps? > > Contempt for the helpless is not hatred, but it might as well be. You look at a crowd of victims, and see freeloaders. And you form your judgement in pure ignorance, you know nothing about these people, but their condition of misery. > > And you blame _them_. To paraphrase Mick Jagger, you’re working perfectly, but there is a part missing. Somebody when you wanna get serious, and attempt to communicate, let me know. After 10 years of this false attribution bullshit of yours I’ve learned not to waste my time. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/132 "2009-08-02T02:57:11Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > May I jump in here? It’s easy for people to denigrate “the poor.” > > However: many uninsured people are not poor. They also have not made bad choices, or are uninterested in taking care of their own bills, or are moochers, or have poor planning skills when it comes to their own financial future, or any of the other things that seem to jump to people’s minds. Yup. I earn over $250K, but because of a pre-existing condition (since birth), was declined by every insurer in my state. i moved overseas 7 years ago and immediately was approved for private insurance from a UK firm (and I never lived in the UK). I’d be happy to pay for insurance, but nobody will sell it to me in the US. I figure the US has lost out on $500,000 in my spending, which instead benefited other countries since I left. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/133 "2009-08-02T03:20:06Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > I dunno, place them with a family that actually looks out for their well-being? Just a thought. And who pays for that? You are aware that foster parents get paid by the government from your taxes, right? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/134 "2009-08-02T03:25:25Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > I’m not talking about the infirm. But yes, let’s talk about the children. Their parents bear 100% of the responsibility for protecting their life, health, and well-being. Not the government. Yet, said “parents” remained in a mandatory evacuation zone, with a CAT 5 hurricane bearing down on the city. How is that not child endangerment? And you still have yet to answer the question. So I’m going to ask one more time. **How should these people, who had no access to transportation out of their neighborhoods, let alone the city, have evacuated themselves and their endangered children?** You keep saying that they were responsible to do so, but you cannot explain the means by which they were supposed to do so. > [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I’d be happy to pay for insurance, but nobody will sell it to me in the US. I’m in this category too. I just got a denial letter for a policy I applied for even though I really couldn’t afford it. This is the sixth insurer that’s decided that I’m too great a risk in the last five years. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/135 "2009-08-02T03:36:34Z")
But with RepubliCare, you get a lovely limited-edition Hallmark condolence card, redeemable for two dollars off a Denny’s Cardiac Paddle Breakfast! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/136 "2009-08-02T03:45:37Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > And you still have yet to answer the question. So I’m going to ask one more time. You haven’t answered the question. You said people were showing personal responsibility by going to the Superdome. How so, when they shouldn’t have remained in NOLA in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/137 "2009-08-02T03:58:45Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > You haven’t answered the question. You said people were showing personal responsibility by going to the Superdome. How so, when they shouldn’t have remained in NOLA in the first place? As opposed to staying in their houses and having to go to their roofs when the waters came in, and be rescued? If they were lucky? You mean by listening to the recommendations of the authorities. Yes, they were being responsible. Now, please tell us how they were supposed to leave, and while you’re at it tell us if you’ve ever been to New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/138 "2009-08-02T04:13:49Z")
Wait a second - they were told to go to the Dome? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/139 "2009-08-02T05:01:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As opposed to staying in their houses and having to go to their roofs when the waters came in, and be rescued? If they were lucky? You mean by listening to the recommendations of the authorities. Yes, they were being responsible. > > Now, please tell us how they were supposed to leave, and while you’re at it tell us if you’ve ever been to New Orleans. No, they were not being responsible, since they didn’t leave under the mandatory evacuation order. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/140 "2009-08-02T05:32:42Z")
**Carol Stream** won’t tell you how they were supposed to leave because her political philosophy is entirely dependent on magic, not logic. In her world New Orleanians could just magically leave. All she can do is mindlessly wag her finger, because her shriveled heart ceased pumping blood anywhere else long ago. I’m going to call it in advance. No posts of hers will include viable ways for those trapped to have left. She won’t be able to think of any, but facts needn’t align to her opinions for her to run her mouth. The utter definition of a zealot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335.md?page=8)