# Opponents of public health care.. oops, "socialized medicine" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335 "2009-07-26T17:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/141 "2009-08-02T14:07:16Z")
I think she just forgot what chaos was underway prior to the storms. Following Katrina, Houston was evacuated. People died in their cars (their 'resources, if you will) on the freeways and highways to San Antonio and Austin. My sister spent 8 hours on the road, never got more than 4 or 8 miles (I forgot which) from her home and just went back home. I left one day early (before the call to evacuate) and my 4 hour drive was 8 hours. DH left the next day and his 4 hour drive took 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/142 "2009-08-02T15:32:13Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I think she just forgot what chaos was underway prior to the storms. Following Katrina, Houston was evacuated. People died in their cars (their 'resources, if you will) on the freeways and highways to San Antonio and Austin. > … > I left one day early (before the call to evacuate) and my 4 hour drive was 8 hours. DH left the next day and his 4 hour drive took 24 hours. I can verify this. I kept in contact with my sister and her family during their evacuation from Houston to Longview, TX. A nearly five hour drive, normally, took them over 24 hours thanks to all the traffic (and this is with both directions open on the freeway). And, of course, it turned to have been a wasted trip- the impact of the storm upon Houston was fairly insignificant. I can’t imagine how **Carol Stream** would expect people without cars to perform such an evacuation. Maybe they should’ve taken their helicopters, instead? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/143 "2009-08-02T15:38:35Z")
You just click the slippers together and say “There’s no place like home!” and there you are! Of course, if home happens to be located in Houston or New Orleans, well, then you’re boned, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/144 "2009-08-02T18:44:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait a second - they were told to go to the Dome? Yes, they were. By Mayor Nagin. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/145 "2009-08-02T19:00:26Z")
Nagin had ordered the city evacuated. The Superdome was previously designated a “shelter of last resort” for those who could not get out in time, or who had refused until too late. If you’re under the impression that he \*ordered \*people to go to the Dome, the National Guard efforts notwithstanding, you’ll have to cite it. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/146 "2009-08-03T03:12:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nagin had ordered the city evacuated. The Superdome was previously designated a “shelter of last resort” for those who could not get out in time, or who had refused until too late. > > If you’re under the impression that he \*ordered \*people to go to the Dome, the National Guard efforts notwithstanding, you’ll have to cite it. They were told that the Dome would be a place of safety. I think we all remember what a canard that was. [But of course we should also recall that there was absolutely no plan in place to aid in the evacuation of at-risk populations](http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/30/katrina.evac/index.html). There were going to be people who couldn’t do anything more than try to get to the Dome, if that, and no one really cared. Or at least cared enough to try to come up with some means of assisting them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335/147 "2009-08-03T15:26:09Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Our employment, openness to immigration, general standards of living, ability to innovate in new technologies and medicine and a lot of other things is also superior to other ‘developed countries’. Maybe we have it right, and they have it wrong. Or maybe not. From [“The American Paradox,”](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/01/halstead.htm) by Ted Halstead, published in _The Atlantic Monthly,_ January/February 2003: > [@](#): > > Nothing illustrates America’s profound contradictions more starkly than a comparison with other advanced democracies: among these the United States is either the very best or the very worst performer on a wide range of social and economic criteria. We are simultaneously the leader and the laggard among our peers—almost always exceptional, almost never in the middle. > > Without question we are the richest, most powerful, and most creative nation on the planet. Our economic and military might stems from our embrace of a particularly high-octane brand of capitalism, supported by financial markets that are deeper and broader than any others, labor markets that are more flexible, and a culture of entrepreneurialism that is unparalleled. These attributes have turned America into the world’s unrivaled engine of innovation and wealth creation. We boast more patent applications than the entire European Union; almost three times as many Nobel laureates as Britain, our closest competitor; and more business start-ups per capita than almost every other advanced democracy. One in twelve Americans will start his or her own business, evincing another outstanding American trait—our great tolerance for risk. And our export of movies, television shows, music, and fast-food chains makes us, for better or worse, the dominant cultural force on the globe. > > But like the Roman god Janus, America has two faces. Despite being the richest nation on the planet, we suffer from higher rates of poverty, infant mortality, homicide, and HIV infection, and from greater economic inequality, than other advanced democracies. We have far more uninsured citizens, and a lower life expectancy. On a per capita basis the United States emits considerably more greenhouse gases and produces more solid waste. We spend more per student on K-12 education than almost all other modern democracies, yet our students perform near the bottom on international tests. We have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and among the highest proportions of single parents, and American parents have the least amount of free time to spend with their children; indeed, the average American works nine weeks more each year than the average European. Our performance on many social indicators is so poor, in fact, that an outsider looking at these numbers alone might conclude that we were a developing nation. > > How do we reconcile these two faces of America? To a remarkable degree the United States seems to have exchanged social cohesion and a broad-based middle class for economic dynamism and personal freedom. Have we abandoned what used to be referred to as the common good? > > \ > > THE TWO FACES OF AMERICA > > This list of “bests” and “worsts” is based on a variety of sources—including statistics from the United Nations, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and a number of other groups and experts—but the basic criteria are consistent. Among advanced democracies, America had to rank in the top three for a category to be listed under “bests” and in the bottom three for a category to be listed under “worsts.” (Where applicable, all rankings were determined on a rate basis or as a percentage of population.) > > Bests-------------------------------------------------Worsts > > Gross domestic product------------------------------Poverty > Productivity---------------------------------------------Economic inequality > Business start-ups------------------------------------Carbon-dioxide emissions > Long-term unemployment---------------------------Life expectancy > Expenditure on education---------------------------Infant mortality > University graduates----------------------------------Homicide > R&D expenditure---------------------------------------Health-care coverage > High-tech exports--------------------------------------HIV infection > Movies exported---------------------------------------Teen pregnancy > Breadth of stock ownership--------------------------Personal savings > Volunteerism--------------------------------------------Voter participation > Charitable giving---------------------------------------Obesity Each approach to the social contract has its pluses and minuses, of course, but **on balance** America has made a very bad bargain for itself and should learn from the examples of others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opponents-of-public-health-care-oops-socialized-medicine/504335.md?page=7)