# Opposing abortion does not, necessarily, require support for babies or mothers after birth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602 "2019-05-27T18:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/41 "2019-05-27T23:52:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s ridiculous. Feel free to say we’re pro-just-that-one-choice if it makes you feel better, but it’s silly to say you can’t call yourself pro-choice unless you favor the legality of **all** choices, right up to the choice to torture and murder your neighbor. It is no more ridiculous than criticizing the term “pro-life” because we don’t support life in every single context. Feel free to say that we are pro-just in that one case-life. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/42 "2019-05-27T23:57:57Z")
**Opposing abortion does not, necessarily, require support for babies or mothers after birth** If you believe a fetus is a human then it does. Birth is a morally meaningless event if that is your belief. So what applies before birth applies afterwards, you must do everything in your power to ensure the survival of a human being even at the risk of your own life. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/43 "2019-05-28T00:07:12Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Basically, the argument boils down to: “I don’t want to give up my tax dollars but I expect you to give up your autonomy.” Succinct. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/44 "2019-05-28T00:31:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > **Opposing abortion does not, necessarily, require support for babies or mothers after birth** > > If you believe a fetus is a human then it does. Birth is a morally meaningless event if that is your belief. So what applies before birth applies afterwards, you must do everything in your power to ensure the survival of a human being even at the risk of your own life. Disagree. What did you (the general you) do to help me take care of my child? Nothing. I (and her mother and our extended family) did that. So why should I be responsible for taking care of someone else’s child? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/45 "2019-05-28T00:38:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Disagree. What did you (the general you) do to help me take care of my child? Nothing. I (and her mother and our extended family) did that. So why should I be responsible for taking care of someone else’s child? If General You is required to prevent harm to children before they are born then General You has to do the same thing after they are born. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/46 "2019-05-28T00:51:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are we supposed to see the words “Pro-Life” and just assume it means “Pro-Creation Of Life”? If so, then the “Pro-Life” movement is doing a pretty shitty job of getting this message across _because there isn’t a damn thing in their advertisements, speeches or webglurge that even hints that this is true_. If they changed their slogan to “Up with sex!” they might get somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/47 "2019-05-28T01:22:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If General You is required to prevent harm to children before they are born then General You has to do the same thing after they are born. This may come as a shock to you, but I’m against you killing your kids even _after_ they’re born. That in no way obligates me to feed and clothe your children. It obligates _you_ to do so. Oh how easy life would be if only I could do something immoral to ease by burdens, and if denied the ability to do so, could just shift the burden to someone else. In general, the pro-abortion side seems to confuse “Babies should be provided support” with “Babies should be provided support by someone other than their parents.” And they similarly fail to separate doing or supporting something with being obligated to do so. Being pro-life obligates a person to nothing more than the definition of that term. They may choose to support social welfare programs, WIC, or children’s hospitals. They are not obligated to do so. But anyway, why are we even talking about babies and mothers? I’ve been assured again and again that abortion is about pregnancy, not motherhood. Pro-abortionists are always going on and on about unwanted “tenants” in their bodies and the dangers of pregnancy and how they can’t possibly expect women to do what 130 million other women do every year. They make it all about what to do with “my body,” so why are we even bringing up their wallets? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/48 "2019-05-28T01:34:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Disagree. What did you (the general you) do to help me take care of my child? Nothing. I (and her mother and our extended family) did that. So why should I be responsible for taking care of someone else’s child? **Libtard** : “I think semi-automatic weapons should be banned.” **Virtuous Conservative** : “But I need those weapons for self-defense! You have to ensure that I’m protected from criminals before you ban my semi-automatic weapons.” **Libtard** : “Why am I am responsible for your life? I’ve managed to take care of myself and my property without semi-automatic weapons! Why are you making me responsible for your safety?!” **Virtuous Conservative** : "Because, libtard. You’re the one trying to change status quo. You’re the one trampling on existing rights. It is incumbent on you to address the drivers that cause people like me to buy semi-automatic weapons if you want us to take you seriously. Crying about the scary guns isn’t going to do a damn thing to make me move over to your side. It just makes me think you’re a sanctimonious idiot who has never even touched a gun. **Libtard** : YOU DON’T NEED SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS! THEY SHOULD BE BANNED AND I DON’T CARE WHAT ANYONE HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT!!! If you can see how stupid the libtard is being in this hypothetical conversation, maybe you can understand why you aren’t getting a whole lot of respect here. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/49 "2019-05-28T01:49:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Disagree. What did you (the general you) do to help me take care of my child? Nothing. I (and her mother and our extended family) did that. So why should I be responsible for taking care of someone else’s child? It takes a village dude. Teachers taught your child, bus drivers got them to school. Police made sure the streets were safe for your kid… ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/50 "2019-05-28T01:51:50Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > First, I don’t think the pro-life position requires supporting abolition of social welfare programs. These women that have children that they didn’t otherwise want to have, and are indigent, would still be eligible for WIC, SNAP, Section 8 housing and the whole panoply of services that we provide. So in a sense, we are already “paying” for that. I think that you missed this part of my post when you quoted the bit that you quoted" > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So yes, I’d say that people who are insistent that a fetus must be carried to term and become a child should be willing to pay taxes in order to support that child once it’s born. Some of them are, of course. But what’s being discussed in this thread I think is the ones who aren’t. In other words: if you support the existence of social welfare programs, and don’t object to paying taxes for them, then I wasn’t criticizing you. (About that, anyway. Other issues may apply.) ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/51 "2019-05-28T02:52:32Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > It takes a village dude. Teachers taught your child, bus drivers got them to school. Police made sure the streets were safe for your kid… Fine. You got me. I’m convinced. If babies aren’t aborted, I now agree we should provide them with teachers to teach them, bus drivers to get them to school, and police to make sure the streets are safe for them. We can close the thread now. All has been resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/52 "2019-05-28T03:04:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Let’s take away the labels of “murder” and “pro-life” :dubious: Uh, “murder”, unlike “pro-life”, is something more than just a rhetorical “label”: it’s officially a crime. As **Bryan Ekers** pointed out, if somebody is trying to massively modify what counts as a crime in a society, and/or what the punishment for such a crime should be, while completely disregarding the predictable social consequences of that modification, that person is being wilfully irresponsible. Similarly, anti-abortion conservatives who want to saddle our society with millions of unwanted babies by redefining abortion to be murder, without bothering to figure out any pragmatic way to address the massive support and care deficits that those unwanted babies will inevitably face, are being wilfully irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/53 "2019-05-28T05:47:35Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Well, hell, it’s Memorial Day, so drink up. 🙂 > > Again, I’m not talking about welfare programs. I am trying to understand the underlying logic. > > Pretend I make $5 million per year. Pretend I have $100 million in the bank. I don’t need your money or the taxpayer’s money to raise a child. I have enough to raise 100 children, okay? > > Now, suppose I am a woman and become pregnant. The new abortion law says that I cannot have an abortion but must give birth to the child. Leaving aside that I can put the child up for adoption, assume that it means that I must now pay to raise the child for 18 years. Do the people that supported the abortion law owe me money? > > If so, imagine the same except I have a 2 year old child. I would rather use the money for the next 16 years to buy exotic animals or use $100 bills to light my cigars instead of caring for the child. Since you make it illegal by your continued support of murder laws for me to forego this expense, shouldn’t you pay me the costs of raising a child for 16 years? Well obviously if you have lots of moneys you won’t be eligible for food stamps, clothes donations and similar care packages so that’s fine. As for the rest, your being loaded doesn’t really factor in the availability of free schools, or free school lunches. Besides your being loaded means you (hopefully…) pay more taxes, which takes care of that “problem” : you’re already paying more for the “free” school that the poor 15 year-old you and your moral buddies forced to keep a kid she didn’t want. The underlying logic isn’t to “punish” anti-abortion folks (it’s not like there’s a “pro choice” deductible, is it ?), or to give every new parent the same amount of money out of some stupid notion of “equality”. The underlying logic is that I, and everyone else, have a vested interest in living in a society of healthy, educated, hopefully not \*too \*fucked in the head people who don’t need to steal my shit nor are driven to break my shit in anger and hopelessness. More babies means more food, school, training, buses, nurses and so on are needed ; means taxes will in turn need jacked up to pay for it. It’s really not a complex, layered bit of thinking. No abortion means higher social costs means higher taxes. Anything else is schyzophrenic at best, and dysfunctional in the mid- to long run. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/54 "2019-05-28T07:54:15Z")
I think that being human requires supporting other people. After all, _they_ support _us_ all the time. But I guess I should take my socialist views someplace else… ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/55 "2019-05-28T10:06:55Z")
Conservatives have no problem predicting the negative outcomes associated with other kinds of proposed laws. Amnesty for illegal aliens? “OMG. All those terrorists and criminals and god-knows-what-else in our country, getting on welfare and pissing off all the good immigrants and stealing our jobs? No way!” Subsidies for renewable energy? “OMG. What if the wind stops blowing and the clouds cover the sun? I won’t be able to watch TV anymore!” Expanded Medicare? “OMG. Our taxes are gonna go up just so some lazy unemployed hypochondriac can practically live in the doctor’s office waiting room!” Gun control? “OMG. We are gonna be sitting ducks for when another tyrant like that Obama takes over the White House. And all the illegal aliens will rape our women and we won’t be able to defend them!” But there are no horrible unintended costs associated with an abortion ban. All they can see are cute babies. They don’t see dead or permanently crippled women. They don’t see increased costs associated with ramped-up child protection services, foster care, mental health services, law enforcement, and the criminal justice system. And you better believe they will fight these increased costs with every grain of their being, repeating what **UltraVires** eloquently said (paraphrased): “WHY AM I RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR KID?!” These people have the audacity to tell us they are carrying out Jesus’s will by banning abortion, and yet they say shit like this. It blows my mind how so many people can be so foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/56 "2019-05-28T12:09:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Let’s say there was a huge epidemic of people killing their two-year-old kids. The first thing I’d want to find out is what the hell is going on. Are these normal parents? Are these normal two-year-olds? > > Let’s say the two-year-olds being killed are NOT normal two-year olds with normal problems. They are severely behaviorally disordered, and their behaviors are ruining their parents’ lives. That’s a pretty bad analogy, because the vast majority of abortions in the US are done on healthy fetuses of healthy mothers. So if your analogy was going to work, we would investigate and find that the two-year olds being killed are pretty average - no health issues, no behavior issues - their parents just don’t want them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/57 "2019-05-28T12:31:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > …OMG. Our taxes are gonna go up… > … They don’t see increased costs associated with ramped-up child protection services, foster care, mental health services, law enforcement, and the criminal justice system. And you better believe they will fight these increased costs with every grain of their being, repeating what **UltraVires** eloquently said (paraphrased): “WHY AM I RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR KID?!” Never mind the kid and abortion. All those things – people in need of more investment in health care, justice, security issues? You know the position: \*“Consequences of YOUR bad life decisions, or your parents’. Too bad, life just is that way. Live with it or get over it. Don’t tax me to pay for it.” \* ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/58 "2019-05-28T13:06:32Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Fine. You got me. I’m convinced. If babies aren’t aborted, I now agree we should provide them with teachers to teach them, bus drivers to get them to school, and police to make sure the streets are safe for them. > > We can close the thread now. All has been resolved. Finally. That took far longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/59 "2019-05-28T13:07:12Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Disagree. What did you (the general you) do to help me take care of my child? Nothing. I (and her mother and our extended family) did that. You and your family grew all the food that nourished your child? You and your family made all the medicine to care for your child? You and your family felled the trees, hewed the wood and built the home that sheltered your child? You and your family wove the cloth that clothed your child? You and your family gathered the fuel to warm your child in the winter, and built the machines to cool your child in the summer? Of course you didn’t. You played your part in our society, providing a service that you are skilled at providing and in exchange, other people, playing their parts of our society, provided things that they are skilled at providing, like food, shelter, fuel, education, and all the other things that families need to care for a child. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602/60 "2019-05-28T13:12:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So in your mind, “Pro-Choice” and “Pro-Abortion” are distinctions without a difference? Absolutely not. The “Pro-Choice” movement is not going around insisting that anyone has the right to order a pregnant woman to have an abortion. All they want is for women to have the choice to have a legal abortion. Whoopi Goldberg is pro-choice, yet she supported her daughter’s decision not to have an abortion. My sister and her legally wedded wife are all for women’s rights, yet they took in their granddaughter and her twin babies and supported them. It’s all about legal abortion and _CHOICE_. The fact that the “pro-choice” anti-abortion movement labels us “pro-abortion” shows how disgusting their tactics are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposing-abortion-does-not-necessarily-require-support-for-babies-or-mothers-after-birth/834602.md?page=4)