# Opposition to "buyback" programs is what invalidates what the NRA has become **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201 "2013-02-03T07:22:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/1 "2013-02-03T07:22:30Z")
It wasn’t always what it is now. [There was a time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association) when the NRA was more open-minded to gun-control. But the organization has changed over time. > [@](#): > > The NRA formed a legislative affairs division in response to debate concerning passage of the 1934 National Firearms Act,[20] the first major gun control legislation in the United States. At the time, the NRA supported the act without studying its impact on the second amendment, and also supported the Gun Control Act of 1968. The two acts created a system to license gun dealers and imposed taxes on the private ownership of machine guns.[21] > > **“The Cincinnati Revolution”** > > Since the 1970s, the NRA has undergone a series of changes, resulting in different groups taking control of the organization and changing its focus away from hunting, conservation and marksmanship to one of Second Amendment advocacy and political mobilization. > > The defining moment came at the 1977 annual convention in Cincinnati, known as “The Cincinnati Revolution.”[22] Until then, the NRA had focused on sportsmen, hunters and target shooters, and had downplayed issues of gun control. At the convention, the leadership had planned an elaborate new headquarters in Colorado, designed to promote sportsmanship and conservation. Within the organization, an opposition was formed of activists whose whose central concern was Second Amendment rights. The activists defeated the incumbents in 1977 and installed Harlon Carter as Executive Director and Neal Knox as head of the ILA.[23][24] > > After 1977, the organization expanded its membership by focusing heavily on political issues, downplaying the roles of hunters and target shooters, and forming coalitions with conservative politicians, most of them Republicans.[25] With a goal to weaken the Gun Control Act of 1968, Knox’s NRA successfully lobbied congress to pass the McClure-Volker firearms decontrol bill of 1986 and worked to reduce the powers of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In 1982, Knox was ousted as director of the ILA but began mobilizing outside the NRA framework and continued to promote opposition to gun control laws.[26] The organization’s approached 3 million people by 1984, but internal turmoil continued, as several executive vice presidents were removed.[27] > > At the 1991 national convention, Knox’s supporters took control of the board, and named staff lobbyist Wayne LaPierre as the Executive Vice President. The NRA focused its attention on the gun control policies of the Clinton administration.[28] Knox again lost power in 1997, as he lost reelection to a coalition of moderate leaders who supported movie star Charlton Heston, despite Heston’s past support of gun control legislation.[29] In 1994, the NRA unsuccessfully opposed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, but successfully lobbied for the ban’s 2004 expiration.[30] Heston was elected president in 1998 and became a highly visible spokesman for the organization. In an effort to improve the NRA’s image, Heston presented himself as the voice of reason in contrast to Knox.[31] And now [look where that has led.](http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168926749/nra-vows-to-stop-tuscon-from-destroying-guns) > [@](#): > > The Tucson Police Department also held a gun buyback Tuesday. Police want to destroy the 206 firearms turned in to them. But the National Rifle Association says that would violate Arizona law. > > \ > > Todd Rathner, an Arizona lobbyist and a national board member of the NRA, may sue. He has no problem with the gun buyback, but he does have a problem with the fate of the guns once police take possession of them. > > “We do believe that it is illegal for them to destroy those guns,” he says. > > Rathner says Arizona state law forces local governments to sell seized or abandoned property to the highest bidder. > > “If property has been abandoned to the police, then they are required by ARS 12-945 to sell it to a federally licensed firearms dealer, and that’s exactly what they should do,” he says. > > That way, Rathner says, the guns can be put back in circulation or given away. See [this Pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=678335) on that. IOW, it now appears that instead of couching the argument in terms of “freedom” or “rights” or “lesser of two evils,” the NRA has evolved to the position that a heavily-armed society is something America **should** have, and any effort to make it less-armed is bad. This is as if Libertarians arguing for drug-decriminalization were suddenly to start proclaiming that cocaine and heroin are **good** for you, and the more of those substances we have on the market the better. It would shatter the credibility even of their more-credible arguments. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/2 "2013-02-03T15:20:37Z")
Yeah, where did the get the crazy idea that “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State…”? And your analogy is excellent since the constitution states: “A citizenry with a well stocked supply of recreational drugs, being necessary to the security of a free state…” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/3 "2013-02-03T15:21:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IOW, it now appears that instead of couching the argument in terms of “freedom” or “rights” or “lesser of two evils,” the NRA has evolved to the position that a heavily-armed society is something America **should** have, and any effort to make it less-armed is bad. It seems to work for the Swiss. > [@](#): > > This is as if Libertarians arguing for drug-decriminalization were suddenly to start proclaiming that cocaine and heroin are **good** for you, and the more of those substances we have on the market the better. It would shatter the credibility even of their more-credible arguments. I can’t speak about the health effects of cocaine and heroin, but I do know that evidence indicates that alcohol in moderate dosages does have health benefits. Maybe it’s like that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/4 "2013-02-03T15:25:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It seems to work for the Swiss. Are you advocating that we use the same system when it comes to firearms that the Swiss use? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/5 "2013-02-03T15:29:24Z")
Blahblahblah. You started a thread that is exactly the same as the one in the Pit, and for what? So you could repost your copypasta for at least the third time? I oppose buybacks for four simple reasons: 1. It’s a great way for criminals to dispose of evidence and get paid for it. 2. People who don’t know better turn in tremendously valuable firearms for a pittance, which in my opinion constitutes theft. 3. People who DO know better load up on $90 pieces of zinc trash or bring rusty old garbage and profit greatly from it. 4. It is a horrible use of public money. It doesn’t even begin to address anything, it’s a show for people who want to be seen “doing something”. My opinions probably track largely with those of the NRA. Guess that invalidates my thoughts on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/6 "2013-02-03T15:30:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you advocating that we use the same system when it comes to firearms that the Swiss use? Maybe not all of it, but I like a lot of it. ---
**Author:** ![Atakapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Atakapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atakapa)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/7 "2013-02-03T15:40:24Z")
I’d imagine that a large portion of the opposition is due to gun aficionados not wanting to see valuable collector’s items and weapons of historical significance melted down. As a collector, the photos of gun buybacks personally squick me out because I can pick out all the custom pieces, grandpa’s war relics, and otherwise desirable items among the crap, and know that the irreplaceable and rare is going to melted down with the cheap garbage. I compare it to a “Cash for Clunkers” event where muscle cars and pristine classics are scattered among the sea of Pintos and Honda Civics, but being destroyed regardless of their value and rarity. They’re making quite a stretch to try to legally force the buyback programs to auction the weapons, but I can see why they’d desire a chance to sift through what’s handed over. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/8 "2013-02-03T16:08:13Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > 1. People who don’t know better turn in tremendously valuable firearms for a pittance, which in my opinion constitutes theft. > > 2. People who DO know better load up on $90 pieces of zinc trash or bring rusty old garbage and profit greatly from it. 1. Let the buyer beware. 2. Let the merchant/government beware and write the rules accordingly. I would support a local expert being on hand to check out rare, or historical items. Further, I would support allowing them to make a counter offer to the person turning in the weapon, providing that we can ensure that it will not immediately go back on sale to the _general_ public at a dealer’s store. Such weapons can be cataloged and offered to museums, auction houses, or to those with dealer licenses. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/9 "2013-02-03T16:31:15Z")
I think this is the key passage: _“After 1977, the organization expanded its membership by focusing heavily on political issues, downplaying the roles of hunters and target shooters, and forming coalitions with conservative politicians, most of them Republicans.”_ Around that time, you saw a new strategy in the conservative movement. Rather than trying to sell the conservative ideology as a whole, various single-issue groups were identified - like Second Amendment supporters, pro-life groups, anti-gay rights groups, anti-immigrant groups, etc - and brought into a broad conservative coalition. And to keep these people in the tent, they had to be fired up. The membership needed to be convinced that their cause was under attack by the “liberals” and their was no chance of reaching an accommodation with the other side. People had to be scared into a siege mentality. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/10 "2013-02-03T16:39:04Z")
So the NRA, an organization founded on the preservation of the proficiency of citizens with firearms, is opposed when the government actively encourages citizens to turn in their firearms to be destroyed? Why does this somehow “invalidate” them? If the local cycling association opposes government efforts to buy and destroy bicycles, is this an inconsistent position? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/11 "2013-02-03T16:42:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Around that time, you saw a new strategy in the conservative movement. Rather than trying to sell the conservative ideology as a whole, various single-issue groups were identified - like Second Amendment supporters, pro-life groups, anti-gay rights groups, anti-immigrant groups, etc - and brought into a broad conservative coalition. And to keep these people in the tent, they had to be fired up. The membership needed to be convinced that their cause was under attack by the “liberals” and their was no chance of reaching an accommodation with the other side. People had to be scared into a siege mentality. I think that is a legitimate problem. I’m pro-choice, I’m pro-gay rights, and I don’t have a problem with legal immigration, and I had been of the impression that democrats had chilled out on the gun control issue since the 1994 gun bans. Now I feel forced to vote Republican again. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/12 "2013-02-03T16:51:30Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It seems to work for the Swiss. Switzerland is not defended by guns. Switzerland is defended by banks. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/13 "2013-02-03T17:20:50Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > 1. People who don’t know better turn in tremendously valuable firearms for a pittance, which in my opinion constitutes theft. > > 2. People who DO know better load up on $90 pieces of zinc trash or bring rusty old garbage and profit greatly from it. As a collector, it pains me to see some of the things being turned in to be melted down. I have seen Lugers in a pile. AR-15s and other Evil Black Guns sell for $1,000 to $2,500, and some of them (notably the Colt Model SP1) have become collectible. Recently a woman turned a StG-44 in, which was valued at about $15,000. (I’m still unsure if it was legal to own, as it not have been registered.) From a collector’s standpoint, some of the guns being turned in are historically significant and/or are very desirable. From an economic standpoint, it make no sense for someone to turn in a gun and receive one-tenth of its value; nor for a government to destroy valuable property that could be sold to law-abiding citizens for a huge profit that could go to the city/county/state budget. As for the people collecting and turning in rubbish guns, that’s the deal the governments are making. ‘Caveat emptor’ and all that. If the valuable guns were sold at auction, the governments would still make a profit even when they are paying for the junk. (By ‘auction’, I suggest an employee to sell on [gunbroker.com](http://gunbroker.com), where the profit can be maximised, rather than your typical government auction.) > [@Kable](#): > > I think that is a legitimate problem. I’m pro-choice, I’m pro-gay rights, and I don’t have a problem with legal immigration, and I had been of the impression that democrats had chilled out on the gun control issue since the 1994 gun bans. I agree. There are more pressing problems in this country than firearms, nearly 100% of which are not used in crimes. We should have full rights for homosexuals, including federally-recognised marriage. A woman should be able to decide for herself what she wants to do with her body and/or cell mass within her. Immigration has historically been a net positive for the country, financially and culturally. College education should be more accessible; not only to the less-than-wealthy, but for older people who need to adapt to a changing economy. The latter would include more class offerings so that people do not have to choose between having a job and paying the mortgage, or completing their education, or being able to take only one class per quarter because they can only take night classes and taking ten years to get a degree.) And my big issue, Universal Health Care. Healthy people are more productive and cheaper to treat. All of these things are more important than passing do-nothing legislation. And in my opinion, better education opportunities and UHC in particular would reduce violent crime. Save the money being spent on buy-backs, and put it toward social programs that actually to some good. Better yet, do have buy-backs and make a profit from them and use the money to do good. ‘Beating swords into plowshares’, as it were. > [@Kable](#): > > Now I feel forced to vote Republican again. I can’t go _that_ far! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/14 "2013-02-03T17:45:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I can’t go _that_ far! :eek: I can’t either, but I can empathize with why **Kable** might feel otherwise. If the Democratic Party decided that public libraries offer Internet access and books so ordinary citizens don’t “need” either, and started proposing restrictions on private Internet access and book ownership, I’d be pretty stuck. Voting for the lesser evil is one thing; what’s a voter to do when the choice is between two different but equally great evils? It’s too bad third parties aren’t viable in our current political system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/15 "2013-02-03T19:38:39Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > It’s too bad third parties aren’t viable in our current political system. [Indeed it is.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=680473) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/16 "2013-02-03T19:40:05Z")
I can understand collectors’ concerns for the destruction of collectibles here. But, somehow I doubt that had anything to do with the NRA’s motives for their lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/17 "2013-02-03T20:32:51Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > 1. It’s a great way for criminals to dispose of evidence and get paid for it. If a criminal has a gun and knows it’s evidence of a crime and he willingly sells it to the police, he’s got brass balls. I’ll say that for him. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/18 "2013-02-03T20:37:50Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > If a criminal has a gun and knows it’s evidence of a crime and he willingly sells it to the police, he’s got brass balls. I’ll say that for him. Why? They are always “no questions asked” events. Ballistics tests can’t be done on the spot or anything. That banger can cap his rival, trade the gun to the cops for a $200 gift card and be eating lobster tails in a 24 hour turnaround. Not too bad… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/19 "2013-02-03T20:39:25Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > If a criminal has a gun and knows it’s evidence of a crime and he willingly sells it to the police, he’s got brass balls. I’ll say that for him. They are generally anonymous events. From wikipedia on the SF buyback program: > [@](#): > > On entering the “buyback room” people were required to provide an electric bill, driver’s license, or mail that proved an individual’s San Francisco residency. (This was to prevent what had occurred in previous buybacks, where people from outside San Francisco drove in and received cash for mostly junk guns.) To assure anonymity to sellers, the person checking ID sat at the entrance, looked at the residency proof, and he did not record or write down any information. Throughout the remaining process a seller did not have to produce ID. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201/20 "2013-02-03T20:49:09Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Why? > They are always “no questions asked” events. Ballistics tests can’t be done on the spot or anything. That banger can cap his rival, trade the gun to the cops for a $200 gift card and be eating lobster tails in a 24 hour turnaround. Not too bad… And he’s also not shooting anyone else with that gun. I’d call that a win. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-buyback-programs-is-what-invalidates-what-the-nra-has-become/649201.md?page=2)