# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/181 "2019-01-29T23:53:35Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > This is a nonsensical argument. You are comparing the effectiveness of the Berlin Wall system (wall + fence + guards every few hundred feet + dogs + land mines + everything else they had) with what is proposed as basically a standalone wall, with zero land mines and zero guard towers and zero shoot-to-kill orders and most if not all of the guards and dogs dozens of miles away. Those are not equivalent, and trying to pretend that they are makes no sense at all. > > If you want to propose a Berlin-like system along the border, then feel free, but that’s not what Trump has proposed at any point, so the objections about effectiveness are made in response to what he really has proposed. Would you care to make arguments about the effectiveness of an essentially unmanned wall that doesn’t have land mines? Unmanned wall does nothing. And no, it’s a perfect counterpoint… according to what you’re saying the wall itself had zero affect on the effectiveness, yet they improved it three separate times. If all the other factors were enough, there wouldn’t have been a wall at all, it would just have been the Berlin military zone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/182 "2019-01-29T23:54:38Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > You detect a group on approach, not after breech. > If they are really good at hiding maybe , maybe they can get with a couple hundred yards assuming a lack of IR detection. > > So, they need to run a couple hundred yards with a ladder, erect it , scale it … Probably twice. So, we have continuous IR detection out to a “couple hundred yards” all along the wall’s 2,000 mile stretch. That sounds expensive. A 30 foot aluminum ladder does’t weigh all that much, and a couple people carrying it will not take that long to cross your couple hundred yards of distance that is being constantly monitored. Climbing 30 feet doesn’t take long either. > [@](#): > > In 3 minutes … Just so the first one over who happens to run a five minute mile in rough terrain can make it half a mile before CBP arrives. 2:30 later. You do realize that you are calling for the border patrol agents to be traveling about 100 mph on their atv’s to do that, right? > [@](#): > > So if they all happen to be special forces, then best case scenario maybe 2-4 out if a group of a dozen highly fit individuals escape. You seem to be comparing people who are rather desperate to escape from violence and poverty with the lazy americans that you know. Once again, how exactly are they being apprehended? Are we just shooting at anyone who runs? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/183 "2019-01-29T23:54:57Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > In heavy traffic areas, you are presumably putting your border agents in the vicinity too, so when somebody goes over the wall, there’s somebody close at hand to catch them. Mr. Trump and his administration have made no comparable proposal for the vast empty stretches that comprise most of the border. So why use a wall? Why not just the agents? After all the wall has no function ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/184 "2019-01-30T00:02:03Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > How about a group of a dozen running 300 yards with a ladder and some carpet ,climbing it one at a time, then recovering it, running 20 yards then doing it again. > > Then running far enough not to be able to be caught after the fact. How long do they need, given that the agents trying to catch them may well be dozens of miles away? Also note this [new report](https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2018-12/OIG-19-13-Nov18.pdf) (released in December 2018) from Homeland Security’s Inspector General about the contract DHS signed with Accenture to recruit 7,500 new border patrol agents. In the first ten months of the contract, they hired … …wait for it… two. Accenture collected $13 million in expenses, plus a $40K/head bonus, and they found TWO people willing to work for the Border Patrol who could pass the tests and background checks. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/185 "2019-01-30T00:05:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, we have continuous IR detection out to a “couple hundred yards” all along the wall’s 2,000 mile stretch. That sounds expensive. > > A 30 foot aluminum ladder does’t weigh all that much, and a couple people carrying it will not take that long to cross your couple hundred yards of distance that is being constantly monitored. > > Climbing 30 feet doesn’t take long either. > > You do realize that you are calling for the border patrol agents to be traveling about 100 mph on their atv’s to do that, right? > You seem to be comparing people who are rather desperate to escape from violence and poverty with the lazy americans that you know. > > Once again, how exactly are they being apprehended? Are we just shooting at anyone who runs? 2:30 to go 2.5 miles… That’s 60mph Individual performance is staggeringly faster than a group. Just in case you’ve never done a team obstacle course. Hell if just climbing s ladder is 10 seconds it’s takes 1:20 for a dozen people… Ideally 2:40 to do it twice. Plus 45 for a 300 yard dash We’re at 3:25 already iR detection is extremely cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/186 "2019-01-30T00:06:22Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > How about a group of a dozen running 300 yards with a ladder and some carpet ,climbing it one at a time, then recovering it, running 20 yards then doing it again. > > Then running far enough not to be able to be caught after the fact. How about: 1. Cite that the wall would be equipped along its length with sensors that would detect potential crossers out to 300 yards, and would be able to reliably distinguish at that distance between humans, coyotes, cattle, and dust devils. 2. Explain why you think that an entire group of 1 dozen crossers would be relying on a single ladder, instead of having 1 ladder per 2-4 crossers. 3. Explain why they’d have to do it 20 yards later–is there a specific proposal with two walls that you’re talking about? (I may have missed your proposal above with two walls). 4. Cite that border guards are available on a hair-trigger basis, already in vehicles, ready to travel up to 5 miles (so, these hair-trigger guards are posted no more than 10 miles apart) at breakneck speeds to capture border crossers. I mean, if money and realism are no object, I’ma just hire Tony Stark to put autonomous Iron-Man suits all along the border. But the fantasy you’re fantasizing bears zero resemblance to any specific proposal I’ve seen put forward. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/187 "2019-01-30T00:07:00Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Unmanned wall does nothing. And yet an unmanned wall is precisely the proposal to which we are reacting. > [@Littleman](#): > > And no, it’s a perfect counterpoint… according to what you’re saying the wall itself had zero affect on the effectiveness, yet they improved it three separate times. If all the other factors were enough, there wouldn’t have been a wall at all, it would just have been the Berlin military zone. I never said the wall itself had zero effect, so please don’t put words in my mouth. The East Germans NEVER had an unmanned wall; they used a wall in conjunction with guards and dogs and land mines and so forth and so on. We here are discussing Mr. Trump’s proposal, which is exactly like the East German solution except for the guards and the dogs and the land mines and so forth and so on. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/188 "2019-01-30T00:10:08Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > 2:30 to go 2.5 miles… That’s 60mph. Realistically, though, the guards are more likely to be 25 miles away than 2.5; do you have any conception at all how remote and empty the borderlands really are? Or are you planning to set up hundreds more outposts so you can station agents every five miles? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/189 "2019-01-30T00:13:34Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > 2:30 to go 2.5 miles… That’s 60mph I thought you had said 5 miles in 3 minutes in a previous post. Of course, if you change the distance, you can change the time. Also, 60mph if pretty damn fast for an ATV > [@](#): > > Individual performance is staggeringly faster than a group. Just in case you’ve never done a team obstacle course. Only if you have langoliers in your group. > [@](#): > > Hell if just climbing s ladder is 10 seconds it’s takes 1:20 for a dozen people… Ideally > 2:40 to do it twice. Why do they have to climb it one at a time? > [@](#): > > Plus 45 for a 300 yard dash > > We’re at 3:25 already And the border patrol shows up to see a cheap ladder agsint the wall, and the back ends of a couple of new immigrants. Do they shoot? > [@](#): > > iR detection is extremely cheap. define extremely, and define what cheap mens when you are detecting out to a couple hundred yards along a 2,000 mile long wall. Keep in mind that we are no just putting in sensors, but the wiring for power and communication, and then we need to have someone who actually monitors these things. Put a cost on it. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/190 "2019-01-30T00:25:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I thought you had said 5 miles in 3 minutes in a previous post. > > Of course, if you change the distance, you can change the time. > > Also, 60mph if pretty damn fast for an ATV > > Only if you have langoliers in your group. > > Why do they have to climb it one at a time? > > And the border patrol shows up to see a cheap ladder agsint the wall, and the back ends of a couple of new immigrants. > > Do they shoot? > define extremely, and define what cheap mens when you are detecting out to a couple hundred yards along a 2,000 mile long wall. Keep in mind that we are no just putting in sensors, but the wiring for power and communication, and then we need to have someone who actually monitors these things. > > Put a cost on it. You’d only be 5 miles out if you waited until after a breech to react. If you had any warning whatsoever you are much closer already Thermal imaging cameras that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards cost $200 ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/191 "2019-01-30T00:26:46Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > And yet an unmanned wall is precisely the proposal to which we are reacting. > > I never said the wall itself had zero effect, so please don’t put words in my mouth. The East Germans NEVER had an unmanned wall; they used a wall in conjunction with guards and dogs and land mines and so forth and so on. We here are discussing Mr. Trump’s proposal, which is exactly like the East German solution except for the guards and the dogs and the land mines and so forth and so on. You said it was everything else that made it work, not the wall itself. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/192 "2019-01-30T00:34:10Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > And yet an unmanned wall is precisely the proposal to which we are reacting. > > I never said the wall itself had zero effect, so please don’t put words in my mouth. The East Germans NEVER had an unmanned wall; they used a wall in conjunction with guards and dogs and land mines and so forth and so on. We here are discussing Mr. Trump’s proposal, which is exactly like the East German solution except for the guards and the dogs and the land mines and so forth and so on. Are we? Because this was all a hypothetical response to what sort of wall i would set up if I were so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/193 "2019-01-30T00:37:29Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Unmanned wall does nothing. Then you are agreeing with everyone else that “the Wall” would be ineffective. Trump has never proposed anything like the Berlin Wall situation. It is irrelevant, because it is something different. It’s like pointing to an airplane when someone points out that adding wings to a car won’t make it fly. Yes, wings have a purpose in the airplane. But adding wings to a car would be completely ineffective. You’re the one who is trying to change the Wing into the airplane. You think “the Wall” means some extensive system. But that has never been what Trump has proposed. Becsuse, once you do propose that, you realize that the Wall part is the least necessary part. You just need some sort of barrier. It can be a natural barrier. It can be a much cheaper fence. There is no reason for it to be a wall. “The Wall” is a dumb, ineffective idea. The fact that you have to add stuff to it to make it effective means it is ineffective. Sure there whole can be more than the sum of its parts, but “The Wall,” on its own, would be ineffective. So it makes perfect sense that we call it ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/194 "2019-01-30T00:39:08Z")
Hey while we’re at it we could save a bunch of money by building all prisons without walls. I mean there’s armed guards right there anyhow that can response immediately. The walls don’t do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/195 "2019-01-30T00:41:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Then you are agreeing with everyone else that “the Wall” would be ineffective. > > Trump has never proposed anything like the Berlin Wall situation. It is irrelevant, because it is something different. It’s like pointing to an airplane when someone points out that adding wings to a car won’t make it fly. Yes, wings have a purpose in the airplane. But adding wings to a car would be completely ineffective. > > You’re the one who is trying to change the Wing into the airplane. You think “the Wall” means some extensive system. But that has never been what Trump has proposed. > > Becsuse, once you do propose that, you realize that the Wall part is the least necessary part. You just need some sort of barrier. It can be a natural barrier. It can be a much cheaper fence. There is no reason for it to be a wall. > > “The Wall” is a dumb, ineffective idea. The fact that you have to add stuff to it to make it effective means it is ineffective. Sure there whole can be more than the sum of its parts, but “The Wall,” on its own, would be ineffective. > > So it makes perfect sense that we call it ineffective. If a lone unmanned wall with no CBP is the proposal than I’m definitely wrong and Trump’s wall would definitely be inneffective ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/196 "2019-01-30T01:06:10Z")
There are currently 20k CBP agents on Mexican border, so there’s already 10 per mile. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/197 "2019-01-30T01:08:45Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Thermal imaging cameras that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards cost $200 You don’t need a thermal imaging camera that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards. You need a thermal imaging camera hooked up to a network that can distinguish a person from a dust devil or cow at 300 yards, along with a power network that’s not easily disrupted, and that’s not affected by weather. Can you show us how much that costs? Like, with a link? I won’t say your claim is bullshit, because I don’t know a lot about IR technology. But I’ll be pretty surprised if the technology you’re imagining actually exists, much less costs $200 per camera. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/198 "2019-01-30T01:36:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You can accomplish comprehensive border security of this without No, stop saying that. “Comprehensive,” i.e., nigh-complete, border security would require militarization. Just stop even putting that objective out there. We need border cooperation with Mexico, not border aggression against her. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/199 "2019-01-30T01:58:15Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > There are currently 20k CBP agents on Mexican border, so there’s already 10 per mile. No, there are not. The [most recent statistics](https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/BP%20Staffing%20FY1992-FY2017.pdf) I can find show about 20,000 CBP agents NATIONWIDE. The Mexican border gets most of those, but there are a couple of thousand along the Canadian border. The Southwest border sectors have around 16,600. Now remember that these “sectors” extend far inland; Yuma Sector, for example, extends to the Nevada/Idaho border. Relatively few agents are assigned that far from the border, but some are. Of the ones who are on the border, perhaps a quarter of those are on duty at any given time, a chunk of those on duty will be on other assignments (training, testifying, preparing paperwork, etc.), and a lot of those on duty and on the job will be assigned to the major crossing points. At any given time, there are dozens of agents working at San Ysidro, for example, actually AT the port of entry or working the surrounding land. That doesn’t leave many for the wide open spaces, where the actual ratio is probably more like one agent per ten miles. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/200 "2019-01-30T02:05:58Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > If a lone unmanned wall with no CBP is the proposal than I’m definitely wrong and Trump’s wall would definitely be inneffective Yay! You finally got it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=11)