# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/221 "2019-01-30T13:57:08Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > A lot of people do just that all the time for a starting salary of about $1300 mo. They call it the armed forces. The armed forces of what country? Nobody in the US Armed Forces is sitting around in the middle of nowhere, with nothing to do, and no place for their families to live at a starting salary of $1300 a month. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/222 "2019-01-30T14:14:56Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > You’d only be 5 miles out if you waited until after a breech to react. > If you had any warning whatsoever you are much closer already So, what, at any detection of any movement, they are going to rush to the opposite side of the wall? You do realize that it’s not a no man’s land on the Mexican side of the border, right? There are ranches, and farms, and businesses. There are many entirely legitimate reasons why people would be within a couple hundred yards of the border. With the system you are proposing, you are going to need not only enough border agents to cover the 2000 mile span, but enough to cover all the false alarms that will be sounded as people go about their businesses in their own country. Not only that, but the people you are trying to keep out are not unintelligent animals. They are capable of just the same logical and rational as you or I. It would not be that hard to overwhelm border agents for a long stretch of the wall by having people coming up and picking flowers along the base of it, forcing border agents to react to them, while your ladder team runs and crosses. You probably wouldn’t even have to pay the distractors, just trolling the border agents is probably enough motivation for them. > [@](#): > > Thermal imaging cameras that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards cost $200 And you will need one of these every couple hundred yards, so about 10 per mile. 2,000 mile of border wall calls for 10,000 cameras (with no backups or spares), so we are talking 2 million dollars on thermal imaging cameras alone. That is of course, before wiring for power and communication. I’d also have to wonder what the lifespan of a thermal imaging camera facing into Mexico would be. If someone takes shots at the wall, damaging the cameras, are we going to shoot back? You still haven’t said what the ROE should be for apprehending border crossers. When is lethal force justified to prevent someone from illegally entering the country? If we are willing to kill people to keep them out, then the job becomes much easier logistically, but much harder to justify morally. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > No, stop saying that. “Comprehensive,” i.e., nigh-complete, border security would require militarization. Just stop even putting that objective out there. We need border cooperation with Mexico, not border aggression against her. Well, to me, comprehensive means multifaceted, using all of the several techniques at our disposal, including cooperation with the Mexican government, when and where they make sense to be used. It does not mean impenetrable. Is there a term you would prefer that is used for referring to an improved border security situation that is more complex and nuanced than just a wall? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/223 "2019-01-30T14:14:58Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > We still aren’t accounting for national guard patrols. Speaking of which, there is a shortage of National Guard volunteers. Trump wanted 4,000, but right now there’s only like 2,100 or so. That’s because the Guardsmen have day jobs that are often better-paying, and it’s pretty much a stupid idea to deploy the military to the border anyway. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/224 "2019-01-30T14:17:52Z")
Sorry, BUT ALL NEGOTIATIONS MUST STOP UNTIL I LEARN IF I’M GETTING MY INVISIBLE DOOR! That fucking gazebo didn’t build itself, gawddammit! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/225 "2019-01-30T14:18:48Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > What about a door? I got a dock with a fishing boat on the other side… do I get a door? > > I also spent $9,000 clearing, graveling, and decorating a pathway which leads from my house, winds past the pool, and then proceeds past the gazebo to my Rio Grande boatdock. I demand the door be placed to best utilize my path. > > In addition, I demand the wall be invisible because I didn’t spend $1.4m on a small 30-acre ranch with 400ft of RG access so some fucknut meth-addled hillbilly in Kentucky can feel better while stroking his cock with his revolver while watching InfoWars. > > And, I’m sure, my other rich and influential neighbors will demand the same. You don’t need a door. Within a few weeks, your property will be littered with all the cheap ladders you could ever need or want. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/226 "2019-01-30T14:20:18Z")
#Winning ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/227 "2019-01-30T14:44:55Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If you touch it, it summons demons. Win. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/228 "2019-01-30T15:03:32Z")
You’ll have to calibrate the cameras and sensors specifically for people with ladders, to track down people with ladders, to essentially hunt for ladders… God help you. Ladders prey… ---
**Author:** ![postpic200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@postpic200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postpic200)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/229 "2019-01-30T15:11:15Z")
While a wall make sense in SOME places, there are far better ways to solve the illegal alien problem. We are going about this problem the wrong way, in my opinion. Let’s start by asking why are the illegal aliens coming here? For the most part, to find work. So why are employers hiring them? Because for the most part they are cheaper. So, if a business is looking at a huge fine, for employing people they know or should have known can’t legally work in the US, that would mean the jobs for illegal aliens would dry up, and without work most would self deport. Now as far as a fine goes say $10,000 per man hour work with the minimum fine of $20,400,000 per employee unless proof is provided that shows the ineligible worked less than 2,040 hours. Employers already check to see if someone is legal to work in the US, so no real added burden for them. So under this plan, the work will dry up for people who can’t legally work in the US for the most part, without work most will self deport, business will be less likely to hire illegal aliens as the incentive to hire cheap labor now come with a huge risk. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/230 "2019-01-30T15:23:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And you will need one of these every couple hundred yards, so about 10 per mile. 2,000 mile of border wall calls for 10,000 cameras (with no backups or spares), so we are talking 2 million dollars on thermal imaging cameras alone. That is of course, before wiring for power and communication. And monitors, and facilities for the monitors, and of course the thousands of people who will have to sit there and watch all those monitors 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/231 "2019-01-30T15:38:36Z")
It’s easy to design an AI that can monitor all this. MY POST IS MY CITE! ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/232 "2019-01-30T15:45:42Z")
[Newsweek -](https://www.newsweek.com/dhs-struggling-hire-border-agents-immigration-officers-despite-trumps-promise-1307227) > [@Newsweek](#): > > It has been two years since President Donald Trump signed an order to hire 15,000 new border agents and immigration officers as part of his administration’s border security crackdown. However, despite dedicating tens of millions of dollars to the effort, his administration has reached less than 5 percent of that goal. > > So far, the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agency has only seen 33 new hires from a $60.7 million contract that was awarded to management consulting firm Accenture Federal Services as part of a larger $297 million deal to recruit new border agents over a five-year span, The Los Angeles Times reported. $60.7 million produced 33 new hires. Anyone else think that this may be a little fishy and should be looked into? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/233 "2019-01-30T15:49:20Z")
> [@postpic200](#): > > While a wall make sense in SOME places, there are far better ways to solve the illegal alien problem. > > We are going about this problem the wrong way, in my opinion. Let’s start by asking why are the illegal aliens coming here? For the most part, to find work. So why are employers hiring them? Because for the most part they are cheaper. > > So, if a business is looking at a huge fine, for employing people they know or should have known can’t legally work in the US, that would mean the jobs for illegal aliens would dry up, and without work most would self deport. > > Now as far as a fine goes say $10,000 per man hour work with the minimum fine of $20,400,000 per employee unless proof is provided that shows the ineligible worked less than 2,040 hours. > > Employers already check to see if someone is legal to work in the US, so no real added burden for them. > > So under this plan, the work will dry up for people who can’t legally work in the US for the most part, without work most will self deport, business will be less likely to hire illegal aliens as the incentive to hire cheap labor now come with a huge risk. This seems fine to me. Why isn’t this implemented in law? ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/234 "2019-01-30T15:53:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The armed forces of what country? Nobody in the US Armed Forces is sitting around in the middle of nowhere, with nothing to do, and no place for their families to live at a starting salary of $1300 a month. The armed forces also get free medical care, tuition assistance, food and housing allowances (or chow hall & a barracks room), GI Bill, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/235 "2019-01-30T15:56:01Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > The armed forces also get free medical care, tuition assistance, food and housing allowances (or chow hall & a barracks room), GI Bill, etc. I know. Which makes the original statement even MORE preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/236 "2019-01-30T16:27:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems fine to me. Why isn’t this implemented in law? You mean why hasn’t Congress implemented burdensome regulations and onerous fines on good American businesses that are being deceived by those nasty brown people? [/sarcasm off] In all seriousness, the business groups and individuals who provide so much campaign cash have no particular incentive to want to make themselves pay. Various Trump properties, for example, have [benefited from the labor of undocumented workers](http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/trump-and-his-company-are-no-aliens-to-undocumented-workers.html); why would Trump want to fine himself? > [@Littleman](#): > > A lot of people do just that all the time for a starting salary of about $1300 mo. The _coyotes_ and the cartels pay better. That’s not just sarcasm. At various times, the Border Patrol has had difficulty with agents being paid (or threatened) to look the other way, because a system is only as good as the people running it, and if you can compromise the people, whatever barriers and sensors you’ve got are meaningless. One reason they’ve had trouble filling the ranks is the extensive background checks and interviews trying to weed out those who might be susceptible to malign influence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/237 "2019-01-30T16:30:08Z")
> [@postpic200](#): > > So under this plan, the work will dry up for people who can’t legally work in the US for the most part, without work most will self deport, business will be less likely to hire illegal aliens as the incentive to hire cheap labor now come with a huge risk. And work now done by cheap labor will go undone, as Americans who can get better jobs (which is most of us) do so. So who gets to change the sheets and wash the dishes at Trump hotels? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/238 "2019-01-30T16:34:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, what, at any detection of any movement, they are going to rush to the opposite side of the wall? You do realize that it’s not a no man’s land on the Mexican side of the border, right? I recall seeing a graphic in _Time_ a few decades ago that depicted the East German wall (not the Berlin wall, the one between East and West Germany) which showed that the actual border was about 100 yards away from the wall itself. Whish is kind of the normal way of doing things it you want maximum security. It there is not a no man’s land near the border, you _create_ one, and you can interdict those awful badnasties and their toddlers before they even get to the wall. It would only be a couple hundred acres of desert land in total. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/239 "2019-01-30T16:40:22Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > [Newsweek -](https://www.newsweek.com/dhs-struggling-hire-border-agents-immigration-officers-despite-trumps-promise-1307227) > > $60.7 million produced 33 new hires. Anyone else think that this may be a little fishy and should be looked into? The L.A. Times article doesn’t go into enough detail to know about fishiness. (It does suggest that part of the problem could be that they are being careful not to repeat the error of previous errors in hiring quite a few corrupt CBP officers.) Still, that doesn’t really explain such a huge delay. This contractor, Accenture Federal Services, has been caught before (overcharging the Army on copier ink, of all things, for a $1.7 million settlement), and on this project, a [GAO report](https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2018-12/OIG-19-13-Nov18.pdf) concludes > [@GAO](#): > > In its first year, CBP’s contract with Accenture has already taken longer to deploy and delivered less capability than promised. Accenture is nowhere near satisfying its 7,500-person hiring goal over the next 5 years. Further, CBP has used significant staffing and resources to help Accenture do the job for which it was contracted. As such, we are concerned that CBP may have paid Accenture for services and tools not provided. Without addressing the issues we have identified, CBP risks wasting millions of taxpayer dollars on a hastily approved contract that is not meeting its proposed performance expectations. CBP must hold the contractor accountable, mitigate risk, and devise a strategy to ensure results without additional costs to the Government. If Trump–or anyone else here dickering about this imbecilic wall idea–REALLY cared about border security, they would instead be calling more attention to the problem we have here with Accenture. This looks like just another example of the corrupt swamp that has been stagnating around Trump since he got into office. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/240 "2019-01-30T16:43:23Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It’s easy to design an AI that can monitor all this. MY POST IS MY CITE! You know what would work great for this? **Nanobots.** \ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=13)