# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/241 "2019-01-30T16:46:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > It would only be a couple hundred acres of desert land in total. The math is: # (100 yards [300 feet] \* 5280 feet in one mile \* 2000 miles) = 3.168 billion square feet divided by 43560 square feet in one acre 72,727.3 acres ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/242 "2019-01-30T17:28:13Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The math is: > > # (100 yards [300 feet] \* 5280 feet in one mile \* 2000 miles) = 3.168 billion square feet divided by 43560 square feet in one acre > > 72,727.3 acres I came in to post the same numbers :). I’ll just add that [farmland averages $3000+ an acre](https://www.usda.gov/nass/PUBS/TODAYRPT/land0817.pdf), so we’re talking about roughly $220 million just to pay for that land, **if it’s all farmland**. That doesn’t account for court costs for folks who don’t want to sell, for clearing the land, for conducting environmental impact studies, etc. $220 million is not a lot in the grand scheme of government expenditures, but a 100-yard-by-2000-mile swath of cleared land is gonna start getting spendy. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/243 "2019-01-30T17:35:00Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Yep, that’s kinda the point here. > > The “plan” is ever-shifting; certainly at one point it really was just a stupid wall, a concrete monolith from the Pacific to the Gulf. Whether that is still the plan depends on what day it is and what kind of mood he’s in. > > ?? [Border patrol agents by fiscal year, 1992-2017](https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2017-Dec/BP%20Staffing%20FY1992-FY2017.pdf): the number of agents at year-end 2017 was slightly _lower_ than in FY2009. The number of people crossing the border has declined sharply since 2000, and especially since the Great Recession; more illegal aliens arrive by airplane and overstay visas now. > > As an aside, [here](https://thewesterner.blogspot.com/2014/05/border-patrol-adding-more-rescue.html) is a photo of one of the Border Patrol’s rescue beacons in Tucson Sector. "Tell us you’re there and you need help, and we’ll try to get there in an hour or so."That is people ANNOUNCING their presence and staying in one spot to get rescued, and the Border Patrol still can’t promise to get somebody there quickly. So without knowing what the plan is you can say it is definitely inneffective? Like I said , inneffective just isn’t the best argument. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/244 "2019-01-30T17:38:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I know. Which makes the original statement even MORE preposterous. Ha, CBP has nearly identical benefits. And chow hall is not free. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/245 "2019-01-30T17:38:59Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > So without knowing what the plan is you can say it is definitely inneffective? > > Like I said , inneffective just isn’t the best argument. On the other hand, since what _has_ been said about the “plan” by the administration has been exceptionally vague on details (other than “big beautiful wall,” “steel slat barrier,” the “prototypes” that I posted earlier, etc.), there’s bloody little evidence to support the premise that it _would_ be effective, either. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/246 "2019-01-30T17:55:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The armed forces of what country? Nobody in the US Armed Forces is sitting around in the middle of nowhere, with nothing to do, and no place for their families to live at a starting salary of $1300 a month. Ha, you’ve never pulled guard duty, Done “training” in white sands or watched a highway in Iraq apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/247 "2019-01-30T17:57:48Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > On the other hand, since what _has_ been said about the “plan” by the administration has been exceptionally vague on details (other than “big beautiful wall,” “steel slat barrier,” the “prototypes” that I posted earlier, etc.), there’s bloody little evidence to support the premise that it _would_ be effective, either. True, so the truth is we just can’t say. We can speculate about effectiveness but it really means nothing at the end of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/248 "2019-01-30T18:04:05Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Ha, you’ve never pulled guard duty, Done “training” in white sands or watched a highway in Iraq apparently. You did that? And you only got paid $1300 a month? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/249 "2019-01-30T18:05:23Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Ha, you’ve never pulled guard duty, Done “training” in white sands or watched a highway in Iraq apparently. One key difference is that a soldier signs up to serve a certain number of years, while a GS does not – as you surely well know. So when the soldier gets tired of watching a bunch of sand and being away from his family, he just won’t reenlist. A Border Patrol agent can immediately check out and get another job, which is apparently the leading reason why they have problems with retention: the job sucks. Seriously, after service in the military and as a government civilian, you can’t possibly conclude that workers in and out of uniform can be treated the same way… so why are you pursuing this silly argument? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/250 "2019-01-30T18:09:11Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Ha, CBP has nearly identical benefits. > And chow hall is not free. Military healthcare is also a deduction on your check btw just like everywhere else, not free ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/251 "2019-01-30T18:12:34Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Military healthcare is also a deduction on your check btw just like everywhere else, not free Do you mean the deduction that says “Federal taxes”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/252 "2019-01-30T18:28:52Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > True, so the truth is we just can’t say. > We can speculate about effectiveness but it really means nothing at the end of the day. This is pretty silly. If no plan which is both effective and remotely possible has been put forward, it’s fair to say that the plans are not effective. Otherwise, I can claim to have an effective plan for building a car fueled entirely with water, and you can’t refute the “effective” part as long as I refuse to put forward a plan. The charges of inefficacy are rooted in the various vague plans put forward, none of which are both effective and within the realm of possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/253 "2019-01-30T18:30:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > One key difference is that a soldier signs up to serve a certain number of years, while a GS does not – as you surely well know. So when the soldier gets tired of watching a bunch of sand and being away from his family, he just won’t reenlist. A Border Patrol agent can immediately check out and get another job, which is apparently the leading reason why they have problems with retention: the job sucks. > > Seriously, after service in the military and as a government civilian, you can’t possibly conclude that workers in and out of uniform can be treated the same way… so why are you pursuing this silly argument? I never worked a fully civilian government job. I was dual status. Wore an army uniform the whole time and performed army duties while being considered a civilian employee soooo they kind of can be treated the same. I’m just saying, people do sucky jobs all the time, especially ones with gov benefits. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/254 "2019-01-30T18:46:01Z")
> [@postpic200](#): > > While a wall make sense in SOME places, there are far better ways to solve the illegal alien problem. > > We are going about this problem the wrong way, in my opinion. Let’s start by asking why are the illegal aliens coming here? For the most part, to find work. So why are employers hiring them? Because for the most part they are cheaper. Ehhh, cheaper, maybe. But available, that’s a big one. It’s a tough hiring market out there right now. And, not to mention that immigrants are almost always much more motivated and loyal employees than americans. So, yeah, not having to overpay lazy entitled assholes who don’t know how to put their phone away, if they even bother to show up. I’ve worked with quite a number of immigrants, and most of htem were probably of questionable legal status. I’d rather work alongside any of them then 90% of my fellow gringos. > [@](#): > > So, if a business is looking at a huge fine, for employing people they know or should have known can’t legally work in the US, that would mean the jobs for illegal aliens would dry up, and without work most would self deport. What is “should have known”? If they present to you documents that appear to be genuine, then it is the law that you have to accept them. If you single someone out and demand extra documentation, or refuse to accept a form of documentation listed on the I-9, then it is you that is in trouble. > [@](#): > > Now as far as a fine goes say $10,000 per man hour work with the minimum fine of $20,400,000 per employee unless proof is provided that shows the ineligible worked less than 2,040 hours. Who does this apply to? If I hire someone to cut down my tree, and it turns out that they were an undocumented worker, then am I on the hook twenty million? > [@](#): > > Employers already check to see if someone is legal to work in the US, so no real added burden for them. Exactly, employers already check. You are asking to add burdens to them to make sure that they hire private investigators to make damn sure that they are not hiring anyone ineligible, or risk a fine that will put them out of businesses and ruin them and their family and any business partners for life. > [@](#): > > So under this plan, the work will dry up for people who can’t legally work in the US for the most part, without work most will self deport, business will be less likely to hire illegal aliens as the incentive to hire cheap labor now come with a huge risk. Your understanding of the motivations of employers are incorrect, and your draconian measures to prevent the basic functioning of a free labor market are counter productive. Keep in mind that this extensive vetting would have to be done on all the employees that are hired, not just the brown ones. > [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems fine to me. Why isn’t this implemented in law? Becuase we would no longer be able to have buiesess, if they are risking a 20 million dollar fine for not vetting their employees well enough. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/255 "2019-01-30T18:51:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, to me, comprehensive means multifaceted, using all of the several techniques at our disposal, including cooperation with the Mexican government, when and where they make sense to be used. It does not mean impenetrable. > > Is there a term you would prefer that is used for referring to an improved border security situation that is more complex and nuanced than just a wall? Fair point. Objection withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/256 "2019-01-30T18:56:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Do you mean the deduction that says “Federal taxes”? Tricare monthly premiums [https://tricare.mil/Costs/DentalCosts/TDP/Premiums?p=1](https://tricare.mil/Costs/DentalCosts/TDP/Premiums?p=1) Copayments and deductibles [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tricare.mil/-/media/Files/TRICARE/Publications/Misc/Costs\_Sheet\_2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi17Y2fl5bgAhXGJt8KHeAbB-0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2IVguMIstaVe0CQCZJ4j1V&cshid=1548874561172](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tricare.mil/-/media/Files/TRICARE/Publications/Misc/Costs_Sheet_2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi17Y2fl5bgAhXGJt8KHeAbB-0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2IVguMIstaVe0CQCZJ4j1V&cshid=1548874561172) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/257 "2019-01-30T18:58:14Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I’m just saying, people do sucky jobs all the time, especially ones with gov benefits. But not for $1300 a month, which was your whole point. You were implying that finding 10s of thousands of border patrol agents to man this wall wouldn’t cost a grip because army. But nobody in the army works for $1300 a month. Entry level pay right now by the time someone gets out of training is over $1500 a month, minimum BAH is $783, plus BAS and other benefits. Bare minimum starting pay is over $30k, and as you know a lot of that is predicated on making E-5 in a few years when the pay really starts to take off. Plus college benefits, retirement, etc. A basic grunt costs the government a lot of money annually. It already seems like you’re not a fan of a Trump styled wall, but you’re super eager to throw taxpayer money at coming up with a wall that _could_ work – why? And if we’re throwing billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars at something, don’t you think this should be a bill with lots of details that gets the benefit of a public debate? Are you arguing that we should give the executive branch an open ended check for border security just because you can imagine an effective “money is no object” border barrier? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/258 "2019-01-30T19:00:32Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Tricare monthly premiums > [Monthly Premiums | TRICARE](https://tricare.mil/Costs/DentalCosts/TDP/Premiums?p=1) > > Copayments and deductibles > [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tricare.mil/-/media/Files/TRICARE/Publications/Misc/Costs\_Sheet\_2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi17Y2fl5bgAhXGJt8KHeAbB-0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2IVguMIstaVe0CQCZJ4j1V&cshid=1548874561172](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tricare.mil/-/media/Files/TRICARE/Publications/Misc/Costs_Sheet_2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi17Y2fl5bgAhXGJt8KHeAbB-0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2IVguMIstaVe0CQCZJ4j1V&cshid=1548874561172) Your reservist background is showing, active duty doesn’t pay anything for co-pays nor is tricare deducted from their paychecks. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/259 "2019-01-30T19:01:23Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Tricare monthly premiums > [https://tricare.mil/Costs/DentalCosts/TDP/Premiums?p=1](https://tricare.mil/Costs/DentalCosts/TDP/Premiums?p=1) > > Copayments and deductibles > [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tricare.mil/-/media/Files/TRICARE/Publications/Misc/Costs\_Sheet\_2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi17Y2fl5bgAhXGJt8KHeAbB-0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2IVguMIstaVe0CQCZJ4j1V&cshid=1548874561172](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://tricare.mil/-/media/Files/TRICARE/Publications/Misc/Costs_Sheet_2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi17Y2fl5bgAhXGJt8KHeAbB-0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2IVguMIstaVe0CQCZJ4j1V&cshid=1548874561172) Not sure if you are joking or not, but the first link is for Dental services. And the second link clearly shows that Active Duty military and their families have no enrollment fees, deductibles, or any costs for any covered service. I’m well aware of this because I spent 22 years getting medical care for my family and I, and never paid a dime. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/260 "2019-01-30T19:07:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What is “should have known”? If they present to you documents that appear to be genuine, then it is the law that you have to accept them. If I have sex with a woman who shows me an ID that says she is 22, and later it turns out she is (some illegal age), am I off the hook? Treat businesses and people not legally allowed to work the same way. (At the same time, I absolutely am in favor of increased visas and whatnot) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=14)