# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/281 "2019-01-30T21:17:07Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Have you ever seriously tried to verify identity with the sort of pictures commonly associated with the DMV or other similar agencies? Don’t cops do this 1000s of times a day? > [@](#): > > While the State Dept does take steps to verify the identity of applicants, yes, their process [has been shown vulnerable](https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-10-922T) to issuing genuine passports based on fake documents. If this were so easy, why would anyone waste time with fake papers to work, when they can just get a fake US passport? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/282 "2019-01-30T21:19:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Read the I-9 instructions sometime Yeah, the law would have to be changed. I thought that’s what we were talking about? > [@](#): > > And how long do I have to wait for DHS to get through their backlog before I can hire an employee? How long does a check to see if someone is allowed to buy a gun take? I’d say that long is okay. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/283 "2019-01-30T21:20:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s good advice for 18 year old men :rolleyes: Yeah, it is. Kept me out of trouble. > [@](#): > > I expect that if ICE and DHS want to limit the amount of illegal immigrants working illegally in the US, they would make such a system available for free to business owners. You know how many people get hired every single day in this country? > [@](#): > > Yeah, that would suck. Maybe people would then learn not to elect morons to high executive offices of our country. I learned that, unfortunately, a bit less than half the voters last time around didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/284 "2019-01-30T21:21:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You know how many people get hired every single day in this country? No I don’t. How many? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/285 "2019-01-30T21:30:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Don’t cops do this 1000s of times a day? Are they under a threat of a $20 million dollar fine if they get one wrong? > [@](#): > > If this were so easy, why would anyone waste time with fake papers to work, when they can just get a fake US passport? They do that too. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah, the law would have to be changed. I thought that’s what we were talking about? Well, no we were talking about holding business owners accountable for being fooled into accepting false paperwork, not scrapping anti-discrimination laws. > [@](#): > > How long does a check to see if someone is allowed to buy a gun take? I’d say that long is okay. Without looking it up, I cannot tell you for sure, but I’m going to guess that there are at least an order of magnitude more hirings than gun purchases a year. They also are looking at different things, the FBI check just looks to see if your name comes up in any criminal or flagged database. For immigration, you are going to have to determine the birthplace and citizenship status. E-verify is already slower than a gun check, and making it more robust to eliminate the false positives and ones that slip through will only make it slower. Okay, so I’ve done all this, and I’ve run the new hires data through DHS. Now, it comes back a few months later, that the employee slipped through DHS’s cracks as well. Am I still on the hook for 20 million? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/286 "2019-01-30T22:02:34Z")
I agree that there’s only so much any business can do to verify that a job applicant has permission to work in the United States, and that it is unrealistic to expect that employers must go above and beyond the tools like E-Verify. We’re talking about the same country that once put the late Senator Ted Kennedy on the No Fly List, after all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/287 "2019-01-30T22:04:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If ICE, or DHS, or whomever, can find out if someone is legally entitled to work here, then make that system available to businesses and force them to use it, and keep records of them using it to check each and every employee. They can’t, not easily and only with records that are, by law, confidential, and cannot be searched or checked by the public. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/288 "2019-01-30T22:07:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Don’t cops do this 1000s of times a day? > > If this were so easy, why would anyone waste time with fake papers to work, when they can just get a fake US passport? They do, but few jobs ask for one. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/289 "2019-01-30T22:34:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No I don’t. How many? The way i see it the reason you can’t treat it the same is just practicality. Bouncers check IDs , hundreds a night. They catch the obvious, show some evidence to police they are doing their due diligence and they aren’t held liable for that one or two that happen to get through. Businesses might spend 30 minutes and they aren’t expected to have any intimate private knowledge about every employee. Just due diligence. People reasonably expect if you sleep with some girl you have a lot more time to figure this out. You probably know or met a few of her friends, you probably talked to her more than 5 seconds there are lots of clues that one could be reasonably expected to pick up on. So in this instance if your among the few who got fooled it’s on you. In other words people basically expect that you didn’t bother with your due diligence. Not that it’s fair, I mean if someone went as far as proving they checked ID and we’re trained to spot fakes and still got fooled by some girl any reasonable person would probably not think you deserve some serious jailtime. But that’s not how the law is… ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/290 "2019-01-30T23:08:02Z")
Deincentivizing by cutting off illegal employment is a good idea but idk how youd do it. Probably wouldn’t be too much if an issue if everyone who could get a visa was eligible for more permanent permission of some kind…citizenship or whatever. Actually I’d venture a guess that if all the decent folks had that opportunity they’d become quite a help in rooting out the not so decent ones who still needed to be illegal because they weren’t even elidibld for a visa. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/291 "2019-01-31T03:18:28Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Don’t cops do this 1000s of times a day? Back in the days of my youth (ok, that wasn’t yesterday, but it wasn’t prehistory either), the most desirable of fake IDs were in fact real IDs that belonged to somebody else a little older who happened to resemble you enough that you could pass. Bouncers, liquor store clerks, and even cops could be fooled by a genuine ID of somebody of similar build and complexion, and unless you were either personally known to them or being booked into jail, you could usually get away with it. Judging by the number of people on Reddit’s legal advice sub trying to clean up after [their](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/8nc8d8/my_sister_stole_my_old_id_and_used_it_in_a/) [sibling](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/a7qd9g/i_was_arrested_by_crimes_committed_by_my_sister/) or [other](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/abl0hc/i_have_a_doppelganger_ca/) used their ID inappropriately, this is still popular. > [@Slash1972](#): > > If this were so easy, why would anyone waste time with fake papers to work, when they can just get a fake US passport? I’m using “fake papers” to mean documents that do not in fact identify/authenticate the person they purport to. That encompasses actual forgeries, real documents that have been altered, and genuine unaltered documents that are stolen, obtained fraudulently, or otherwise don’t go with the person holding them. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/292 "2019-01-31T04:22:08Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Back in the days of my youth (ok, that wasn’t yesterday, but it wasn’t prehistory either), the most desirable of fake IDs were in fact real IDs that belonged to somebody else a little older who happened to resemble you enough that you could pass. Bouncers, liquor store clerks, and even cops could be fooled by a genuine ID of somebody of similar build and complexion, and unless you were either personally known to them or being booked into jail, you could usually get away with it. Judging by the number of people on Reddit’s legal advice sub trying to clean up after [their](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/8nc8d8/my_sister_stole_my_old_id_and_used_it_in_a/) [sibling](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/a7qd9g/i_was_arrested_by_crimes_committed_by_my_sister/) or [other](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/abl0hc/i_have_a_doppelganger_ca/) used their ID inappropriately, this is still popular. > > I’m using “fake papers” to mean documents that do not in fact identify/authenticate the person they purport to. That encompasses actual forgeries, real documents that have been altered, and genuine unaltered documents that are stolen, obtained fraudulently, or otherwise don’t go with the person holding them. Seems the current most popular is to just steal a sibling or someone’s other docs and just get a real ID with your picture. Of course not a “real ID” as they are now issuing, which links it to your finger prints ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/293 "2019-01-31T05:29:34Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Of course not a “real ID” as they are now issuing, which links it to your finger prints REAL ID does not necessarily require fingerprints; state implementations vary. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/294 "2019-01-31T05:53:02Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > REAL ID does not necessarily require fingerprints; state implementations vary. Really? I thought it was supposed to be some federal standard? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/295 "2019-01-31T10:35:41Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Very true but your also not required to sleep with hundreds of young girls In order to function ( I’m sure it would be nice if that were the case though) Back up a second - when you say it would be nice to sleep with hundreds of “young girls”… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/296 "2019-01-31T11:32:26Z")
Is it at least on a pile of money? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/297 "2019-01-31T13:40:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Back up a second - when you say it would be nice to sleep with hundreds of “young girls”… Yeah, that maybe didn’t come out the way you meant it, Littleman. I hope it didn’t. On the other hand, this is a whole lot of discussion of statutory rape for a thread about a border wall. Maybe that analogy could be–I’m not gonna say “put to bed,” Christ almighty–maybe it could be dropped? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/298 "2019-01-31T14:54:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, so I’ve done all this, and I’ve run the new hires data through DHS. Now, it comes back a few months later, that the employee slipped through DHS’s cracks as well. Am I still on the hook for 20 million? No, you are not. See? Easy. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/299 "2019-01-31T15:05:50Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Really? I thought it was supposed to be some federal standard? REAL ID does have federal standards, but those standards do not require fingerprints. They require facial image capture ( [6 CFR 37.11 (a)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/6/37.11)); some states chose to add fingerprints, some did not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/300 "2019-01-31T15:17:38Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > REAL ID does have federal standards, but those standards do not require fingerprints. They require facial image capture ( [6 CFR 37.11 (a)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/6/37.11)); some states chose to add fingerprints, some did not. Well great then. Change to law to require fingerprints. Change the law to state all businesses must check for REAL ID before hiring someone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=16)