# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/301 "2019-01-31T17:01:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, you are not. > > See? Easy. So, pretty much the same exact scenario, except now I have added at least an hour or so to the process of hiring a new employee. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/302 "2019-01-31T17:05:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, pretty much the same exact scenario, except now I have added at least an hour or so to the process of hiring a new employee. The exact same scenario as what? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/303 "2019-01-31T17:47:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well great then. Change to law to require fingerprints. Change the law to state all businesses must check for REAL ID before hiring someone. The problem is the lack of political will (mostly, political support) for doing that. For example, Oklahoma is finally getting around to implementing REAL ID (in 2007, the legislature passed a law forbidding the state to work on it; that was repealed in 2017). Oklahoma will be collecting digital fingerprints as part of the process. However, > [@](#): > > There are some concerns that Oklahoma will be sharing biometric information with the Federal government and this is not true. Right now it takes a court order for DPS to release finger images collected for DL/ID purposes. The Commissioner has to approve any request from another law enforcement agency for a person’s DL/ID card photo. There will not be a federal data base. Oklahoma will still be using the same database that we use now. That information is stored in Oklahoma and is not controlled by the Federal government.–[Oklahoma Dept of Public Safety](https://www.ok.gov/dps/FAQs/REAL_ID_FAQs.html) This was a tremendously controversial policy change, and the state had to promise not to share the biometric data collected with the feds to get any form of REAL ID passed. The notion that any random employer will have access to that data isn’t going to fly anytime soon, and Oklahoma is deep deep red territory. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/304 "2019-01-31T17:54:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The exact same scenario as what? That there are ways of getting around such things. The complaint was that the current level of due diligence was not enough. That checking IDs and filling out the I-9 was not enough, because employers or employees could do things to have fake or fraudulent documents. The idea that was proposed was to put the onus on the employer to be liable for accepting fake or fraudulent documents, under the idea that employers really do “know” that they are employing ineligible workers. But, the thing is, even if I “know”, if they give me proper documentation, then if I question it or deny it, then I am breaking the law. The reason for that is that I don’t “know”, and if I claim that I do or can “know”, then I am admitting to being a racist, and so we have laws that prevent racists from using racism in their hiring decisions. This puts us back at the starting point, where dishonest employers can actually help ineligible workers to come up with “proper documentation”. It’s just that now, the honest employers have another several hoops to go through in order to maintain the basic functionality of their business, and severe liability if they make any mistakes in that process. You want to go after employers, you go after people paying under the table, whether to eligible workers or not. If an ineligible worker is making at least MW (and usually more than that) pays (or has paid on their behalf) taxes and payroll taxes, workers comp, unemployment, and all the other fun stuff, then they are really only contributing to the economy. It is employers who pay under the table that are undercutting wages, not supporting their community in taxes, and leaving their workers at risk and liable by not paying worker’s comp, unemployment, or SS/Med. I could support draconian fines for that, as that’s not something that can be done as a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/305 "2019-01-31T18:25:56Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The problem is the lack of political will (mostly, political support) for doing that. Of course. And that’s how you know that people don’t REALLY want to stop illegal immigrants from working, they just want to hate brown people. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/306 "2019-01-31T18:29:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That there are ways of getting around such things. How does a business get around a Federal level database maintained by DHS? If it was that easy, why aren’t the same arguments used for the “legal to buy a gun” check? What’s the point of that, if people can just present false documents to gun sellers? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/307 "2019-01-31T18:41:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How does a business get around a Federal level database maintained by DHS? Unless a DHS agent is actually coming out and interviewing the new hire, then it is pretty easy to say that these particular documents relate to that particular individual. Is that how far we are going, that we need to have a govt agent actually inspect and approve of employees before I can put them to work? > [@](#): > > If it was that easy, why aren’t the same arguments used for the “legal to buy a gun” check? What’s the point of that, if people can just present false documents to gun sellers? I do see that as a problem, and it is a loophole that we should be looking into addressing, but it is a smaller loophole than the one that you don’t even need to present an ID to buy a gun from a private seller. One thing at a time. ETA: also, FFl gun sellers are going to have a bit less motivation to “help” the buyer with their documentation than an employer would. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/308 "2019-01-31T18:45:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Unless a DHS agent is actually coming out and interviewing the new hire, then it is pretty easy to say that these particular documents relate to that particular individual. Is that how far we are going, that we need to have a govt agent actually inspect and approve of employees before I can put them to work? Well, when you enter in the information and fingerprints, gonna be kind of hard to accidently fake the picture that shows up. And hard to accidently disregard the lack of a matching fingerprint in the database. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/309 "2019-01-31T18:46:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > ETA: also, FFl gun sellers are going to have a bit less motivation to “help” the buyer with their documentation than an employer would. Why is that? Are gun sellers held responsible if their customer gave them false information and/or documents? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/310 "2019-01-31T18:50:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, when you enter in the information and fingerprints, gonna be kind of hard to accidently fake the picture that shows up. And hard to accidently disregard the lack of a matching fingerprint in the database. Oh, so we are going with the fingerprint scanner as well? So, we are needing to fingerprint every single American citizen and eligible worker, and enter their data into a federal data base? That’ll go over well. I have a little fingerprint scanner for my front door, thought it would be good idea. It has 9 different images of my finger, and it still often takes several tries to get it to unlock. I stopped using it a while back, more of a pain than useful. Are we actually planning on having CSI level (which doesn’t really exist) fingerprint matching hardware and software? How much would a scanner capable of getting an accurate enough fingerprint image to submit to DHS cost? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/311 "2019-01-31T18:53:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Why is that? Are gun sellers held responsible if their customer gave them false information and/or documents? We’re getting off topic, here, but the point is that a gun seller is usually going to need a sale less than an employer is going to need an employee. A customer is a one time event, and employee is, well, employed. That is not to say that there are not gun sellers who do sell to people illegitimately, but they usually then chalk those sales up to shrinkage, rather than forging documents. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/312 "2019-01-31T18:55:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, when you enter in the information and fingerprints, gonna be kind of hard to accidently fake the picture that shows up. And hard to accidently disregard the lack of a matching fingerprint in the database. If you want to propose that employers have more at risk for hiring people who are not allowed to work here, I would suggest that you not focus on embracing technology to solve the issue, but instead look to investigatory solutions. Like, if a business shows a pattern of hiring ineligible workers, they get hammered with civil suits and tax audits. I think applying the resourced of immigration enforcement agencies to the issue is probably a better thing than demanding that every business start buying this box or that software or whatever to try to prevent the horse from getting out of the barn. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/313 "2019-01-31T18:57:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You know what would work great for this? **Nanobots.** > > \ Can we build the nanobots using nanites? If so, this plan has my approval. GET IT DONE. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/314 "2019-01-31T18:59:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How does a business get around a Federal level database maintained by DHS? There are always ways. The preferred method of dishonest gundealers, for example, used to be just keeping bad records, such as the Arkansas dealer [who “lost” thousands of guns](https://www.thetrace.org/2016/03/missing-guns-ffl-arkansas/), or the [one in Pennsylvania](https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdpa/pr/court-upholds-revocation-federal-firearms-license-owner-taylor-s-trading-post) who had 10,000 record-keeping violations. Since ATF doesn’t have the staff to do frequent audits of all licensees, the average gun dealer has his/her records inspected only once every decade or so. (According to other sources, the Pennsylvania dealer was being inspected for the first time in nearly thirty years when ATF found massive problems; around 7 to 10 percent of licensees are inspected in any given year.) > [@Slash1972](#): > > If it was that easy, why aren’t the same arguments used for the “legal to buy a gun” check? What’s the point of that, if people can just present false documents to gun sellers? I’m sure some people do present false documents to gun dealers. However, there are easier ways: straw purchasers and private sales are bigger loopholes. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/315 "2019-01-31T18:59:37Z")
I don’t think a fingerprint scanner and connection to the Internet is all that onerous of a burden for a business owner. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/316 "2019-01-31T19:09:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t think a fingerprint scanner and connection to the Internet is all that onerous of a burden for a business owner. What would the fingerprints check? There’s no publicly available database of fingerprints, and even if you allowed access to the FBIs files (like banks have) that would only show criminal records. Many Americans arent even in the database. And requiring all Americans to be in a database is exactly the kind of thing we dont want. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/317 "2019-01-31T19:11:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What would the fingerprints check? There’s no publicly available database of fingerprints, and even if you allowed access to the FBIs files (like banks have) that would only show criminal records. Many Americans arent even in the database. > > And requiring all Americans to be in a database is exactly the kind of thing we dont want. We don’t? Seems like that would make a lot of things easier. Aren’t all Americans in a lot of databases right now? What’s one more? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/318 "2019-01-31T19:15:30Z")
Could we build a wall that Immigrants would have a great deal of difficulty getting through? Yes, we could. It would cost hundreds of billions to build and staff. But of course, most illegals come in legally and simply overstay their visa. No amount of wall, not even a New Maginot Line, with mines, razor wire, dogs, machineguns, drones and “shoot to kill” orders will stop them. The most important issue is: why do we want to stop Workers coming from Mexico to work here? We don’t. They are essential to our Agriculture. Yes, we still need some fences and a Border patrol to slow drug smuggling, sure. Just make the Ag worker visa much easier to get (it is not a green card path to citizenship) and we save billions and the Ag sector is happy. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/319 "2019-01-31T19:17:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > We don’t? Seems like that would make a lot of things easier. Aren’t all Americans in a lot of databases right now? What’s one more? Read the piece I quoted above where it takes a court order for Oklahoma law enforcement to share a fingerprint collected as part of ID with federal law enforcement. For a LOT of people, the big bad government needs to deal with those “others” and leave good honest law-abiding people alone. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/320 "2019-01-31T19:22:21Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Read the piece I quoted above where it takes a court order for Oklahoma law enforcement to share a fingerprint collected as part of ID with federal law enforcement. For a LOT of people, the big bad government needs to deal with those “others” and leave good honest law-abiding people alone. Right. Like I said, it just shows that people don’t really care about stopping illegal immigrants from working, they just want to hate brown people. For the record, I don’t advocate for anything regarding working or whatever. If people want to work, let them work. At least they are working. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=17)