# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/81 "2019-01-27T03:50:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You must be eating imaginary cake, because there was no irony there. Oh sure there was, you just can’t see it either, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/82 "2019-01-27T04:41:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oh sure there was, you just can’t see it either, apparently. Cannot see that the facts indeed support “Nazi-loving rapist”? The lack of irony is palpable. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/83 "2019-01-27T05:14:02Z")
The issue is that there is no good reason to have a Wall. I can’t pick just one when all of the reasons are bad. I could say it’s immoral, but part of the reason it is immoral is the cost and practicality. I could say it costs too much, but part of the reason for that is that it is impractical. I could say it is impractical, but part of that is because it costs too much. Ultimately, all I can say is that I promote an actual sane border policy that recognizes the reality of immigration as it exists, rather than the current system of making things illegal that we actually depend on happening. Deal with where we actually are first, by creating legal ways to immigrate that are better than the illegal ones. Then maybe work on figuring out if we need to try to change things, based on real statistics, and not what we desire to be true. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/84 "2019-01-27T05:58:49Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Yep. This is one of the most infuriating parts to me. It’s his signature proposal and you can’t even present a plan. He wants congress to just give him a bunch of money and let him come up with a plan later. He’s had years to come up with a plan. He’s a proven liar. He’s never going to offer a plan, he’s just going to drain our treasury. Well, it’s not like this sort of thing hadn’t been tried before, like with the Affordable Care Act. “Yeah, we’re gonna repeal it _in toto_, and we’ll eventually get around to replacing it with something else; unless we, uh, forget to.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/85 "2019-01-27T11:36:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oh sure there was, you just can’t see it either, apparently. Perhaps you were looking for some other word than irony? It is a confusing concept. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/86 "2019-01-27T14:46:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oh the irony here is delicious. Does this mean you believe his wallophilic opinion is based on facts or not? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/87 "2019-01-27T14:53:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Open borders is a ludicrous notion. However, a wall is impractical. Moats with crocodiles on the other hand might work. More than half the border _is_ a moat. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/88 "2019-01-27T15:14:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > More than half the border _is_ a moat. Well, [moat-_esque_](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/24/climate/dry-rio-grande.html). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/89 "2019-01-27T15:18:59Z")
Also, I will go on record as 100% in favor of entirely open borders, in the US and globally, for moral and utilitarian reasons. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/90 "2019-01-27T15:36:45Z")
_“… Something there is that doesn’t love a wall, That wants it down.” I could say “Elves” to him, But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather He said it for himself. I see him there Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed. He moves in darkness as it seems to me, Not of woods only and the shade of trees. He will not go behind his father’s saying, And he likes having thought of it so well He says again, “Good fences make good neighbours.”_ … —— Robert Frost Thailand now has Five times the per-capita GDP of Myanmar. Yes, that’s Five with an F, a ratio not too much lower than the U.S.A./Mexico ratio. There is huge pressure on Burmese to migrate, legally or illegally, to Thailand for work. Yet they’ve somehow managed without an 8-meter wall … [Here is a scene from the Thai-Myanmar border](https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/myawaddy-myanmar-april-15-2016-260nw-406099252.jpg). Observe Burmese and Thais happily celebrating water festival together. On other days, Burmese cross the border to make a dime in the Thai market across the river; then return to Burma before nightfall. Our government here in the Land of Smiles is not without flaws. But at least we don’t have Trump. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/91 "2019-01-27T16:27:17Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I admit: I’m pretty ignorant about drones. So – how hard is it to shoot one down? > > Because unless it’s practically impossible to shoot a drone down, I can easily envision groups of folks on the Mexican side of the wall shooting at the drones for sport. It sounds like it could be fun. Well, if the drone is at 500 feet, it’s way out of reach of a shotgun. You might get some lucky hits with a rifle. Real lucky. And it’s all fun and games until the drone starts shooting back (don’t advocate that). I looked into Search and Rescue drones a few weeks ago. It’s a coming thing. The same technology could be easily adapted to border security. Its job is to find people. If people are really worried about border security, this is the way to go. I suppose you could have drone outposts about 5-10 miles apart. These ‘outposts’ themselves could be mobile. Once an illegal crossing is discovered, send out a team either on 4wheelers, trucks or by helicopter to deal with what ever situation it is. Still expensive but cheaper, more effective and not an environmental disaster. But Trump wants a monument to himself. And his supporters want a monument to xenophobia. So looking to technology to solve this imaginary crisis is gonna be a no go for them. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/92 "2019-01-27T16:28:28Z")
I don’t like the way the “moral” choice is worded but it’s closest. “Really bad political optics” is better. I don’t want the US to send that particular message to the rest of our planet. I don’t like “moral” because it implies that the wall directly and intrinsically does (or would do) evil things. The problem lies with what it symbolizes, and the meaning it conveys. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/93 "2019-01-27T17:02:54Z")
For me it is financial and practical. It also makes financial and practical sense to deny Trump the victory because if he wins this he will continue to use brinkmanship as the first rather than last resort for whatever hare-brained ego boost he wants next. I can’t see how it is a moral issue. If it is a moral issue, then the rest of the already-existing barriers are immoral as well. While there are probably _some_ who believe in truly open borders, I did not think it was that prevalent a view here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/94 "2019-01-27T17:32:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, but by the speeding analogy, the reason for speed limits is to keep people safe. If a government raises the 55 mph speed limit to 80 mph and then says, “By doing so, we reduced speed-limit violations by 90%,” then technically, they’ve reduced crime, but the roads aren’t safer at all - indeed, they’re probably all the more dangerous now. That is the same argument against raising the speed limit. “If we raise it to 65, then people will just want 80. That is why we should instead lower it to 35.” Just because we are looking to increase the amount of legal immigration allowed doesn’t mean that we will remove any and all limits. The idea that raising a limit is the same as just getting rid of it is a strawman that is very often trotted out as a reason to never change anything, but it is never actually a relevant argument. > [@](#): > > Same goes for those who advocate against illegal-immigration on the basis of “They take our jobs” or “We need fewer brown people in America” or “They’re criminals.” Now, most of those arguments are racist, BS, ill-founded or some combination of all three. But, if someone opposes Hispanics crossing the border into the United States, full stop, then the argument of “We got rid of illegal immigration by making illegal immigration legal!” holds zero water at all. To them, 10 million Hispanics crossing legally or illegally into America is the same - either way, it’s 10 million Hispanics crossing over. Right, which is why they are lying when they say that it is just the illegal immigration that they are against. They will say, “I don’t have a problem with immigrants, so long as they come in the _right_ way”, and then turn around and further restrict or even ban people from coming in the “right” way. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Maybe not by the standards of lazy-fat Americans who have grown soft and weak and too whiny to do the hard jobs that a determined wall-climber is willing (indeed eager) to do for a chance at a better life. > > Frankly, you should let anyone who can climb a 16-foot wall in, and then balance it by kicking out a native-born American who cannot. The national standards will rise accordingly. “So, you crossed a desert to get here? While carrying a ladder? Then climbed a wall, jumped off the other side, and then managed to run and evade border patrol?” Why would I not want to hire this person? Sounds like quite the motivated go-getter who would be a great asset for any company. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > And the crime rate will drop. Except for in those countries that our lazy criminal fellow citizenry will end up in. I do not think it fair to saddle other countries with our criminals, our drug dealers, or our rapists, though some, I assume may be good people. > [@boytyperanma](#): > > Can we compromise with alligators? Importing crocs and adding salt to the Rio seems a bit much. As long as we can put lasers on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/95 "2019-01-27T18:59:51Z")
Most illegals I have known (don’t ask) got here by sea or air and a couple from the north/Canada. A wall across the border with Mexico really won’t do much so why bother? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/96 "2019-01-27T19:12:41Z")
To make the population Trump has previously told to be afraid and why feel better and shout his name and clap and drool and vote for him, the same reason he promised to bar all Muslims from entering the country. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/97 "2019-01-27T19:56:47Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > …While there are probably _some_ who believe in truly open borders… Hi! > [@](#): > > I did not think it was that prevalent a view here on the SDMB. It is very definitely _not_, despite what some of our resident right-wing trolls might wish to claim. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/98 "2019-01-27T21:05:50Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Hi! > > It is very definitely _not_, despite what some of our resident right-wing trolls might wish to claim. Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of open borders? I’m all for massively increasing immigration, and allowing pretty much anyone who wants to come here to come here, but I do still want them to come through a proper point of entry so that we know who (and what) is in our country. I think that there is probably a limit to how many we can take per year, but it is far, far higher than we are taking now, and it is likely higher than the actual demand to come here. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/99 "2019-01-27T21:15:14Z")
As open as crossing from Nevada to California (I’m totally down with having to throw out an apple to help protect Cali agriculture). Or from Belgium to Luxembourg. Worldwide Schengen Agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/100 "2019-01-27T21:33:17Z")
Hey, people want to come here and work and participate in the hemisphere’s second best (maybe) democracy. I want a lot more of those types and a lot fewer of those who find freedom and equality simply too much to bear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=6)