# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/101 "2019-01-27T21:34:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of open borders? > > I’m all for massively increasing immigration, and allowing pretty much anyone who wants to come here to come here, but I do still want them to come through a proper point of entry so that we know who (and what) is in our country. > > I think that there is probably a limit to how many we can take per year, but it is far, far higher than we are taking now, and it is likely higher than the actual demand to come here. More or less open for workers, but they dont get Green cards, they are not on any sort of Citizenship track. They can come, pay taxes , work, and go back. Fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/102 "2019-01-27T22:38:24Z")
> [@andros](#): > > As open as crossing from Nevada to California (I’m totally down with having to throw out an apple to help protect Cali agriculture). Or from Belgium to Luxembourg. Worldwide Schengen Agreement. Those are two different situations, though. Passing from Nevada to California does not require any sort of check of anything. You can wander across the border at any point you desire. My understanding is that when you travel from Belgium to Luxembourg, you still have to pass through a port of entry, even though you don’t need a visa. While I prefer the latter, I don’t think that the former would be the armageddon that the right tries to paint it as either. > [@DrDeth](#): > > More or less open for workers, but they dont get Green cards, they are not on any sort of Citizenship track. They can come, pay taxes , work, and go back. Fine with me. Why no citizen track? I wouldn’t say that they have to be, nor that everyone would qualify, but, while it would be great to have people come here just to help us out in the labor force, I also like that at least some would come with the intention of staying and building a life for themselves and their family as well. Would they just be working along the border, or could I get a few up here in Ohio to help me out in my business? Any limit to how long they can stay? I try to keep a low turnover, as I invest quite a bit into training my employees. I would really like to see most of my employees stay for life, as they only get better over time. I’d hate to spend 5 years getting someone to master their position, only to have them have to leave. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/103 "2019-01-27T23:09:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Passing from Nevada to California does not require any sort of check of anything. You can wander across the border at any point you desire. In some places, you do have to stop at a checkpoint and declare things like apples or cherries, which might have undesirable insects or eggs on them. But, if you sneak in on one of the little used back roads like I-5 or I-80, you can slip past the checkpoints. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/104 "2019-01-27T23:16:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why no citizen track? I wouldn’t say that they have to be, nor that everyone would qualify, but, while it would be great to have people come here just to help us out in the labor force, I also like that at least some would come with the intention of staying and building a life for themselves and their family as well. > > Would they just be working along the border, or could I get a few up here in Ohio to help me out in my business? Any limit to how long they can stay? I try to keep a low turnover, as I invest quite a bit into training my employees. I would really like to see most of my employees stay for life, as they only get better over time. I’d hate to spend 5 years getting someone to master their position, only to have them have to leave. Oh sure, just like today some number can get green cards. That # is limited. A unlimited # can get temp work visas. That’s my idea. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/105 "2019-01-28T02:24:47Z")
> [@andros](#): > > . . . despite what some of our resident right-wing trolls might wish to claim. While not an attack on a poster, (thereby attempting to get past rules regarding personal insults), this is clearly a violation of the spirit of the rules. This is a Note to avoid doing this in the future. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/106 "2019-01-28T02:57:05Z")
When I was a kid the USA was _proud_ of its undefended borders. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/107 "2019-01-28T02:57:17Z")
Thanks, **tom~**. My apologies to all. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/108 "2019-01-28T11:24:36Z")
Anyone know of a long wall that was supposed to keep undesirables out? Which was built at great expense and effort? And the undesirables still got through? Hint: Not a million miles from China. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/109 "2019-01-28T11:47:26Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > Anyone know of a long wall that was supposed to keep undesirables out? Which was built at great expense and effort? And the undesirables still got through? > > Hint: > > Not a million miles from China. Yeah, but over a thousand years later, we still talk about it, and we still call it “Great.” That’s catnip for the Orange Moron. ---
**Author:** ![dhricenak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/47e85d/32.png) [@dhricenak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhricenak)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/110 "2019-01-28T14:58:02Z")
I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I’ve seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/111 "2019-01-28T16:23:30Z")
> [@dhricenak](#): > > I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I’ve seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected. Excellent point — one I’m embarrassed that I hadn’t thought of. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/112 "2019-01-28T17:24:46Z")
> [@dhricenak](#): > > I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I’ve seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected. Trump wants to protect us from coyotes. “Without borders, we have the reign of chaos, crime, cartels and believe it or not, coyotes.” Not the least bit surprised. The man is a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/113 "2019-01-28T17:25:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should have made “political” one of your poll choices. There are a number of Democrats that “actually did vote for [physical barriers on the southern border] before [they] voted against it”, and ISTM that their opposition is primarily motivated by a desire to deny President Trump another victory. Speaking of irony, there’s a stronger argument that support **for** the Wall is political than there is that opposition to it is. In 2013 Republicans shot down a bill that would have allocated **$46 billion** to border security measures including additional fencing, extensive use of drones and a huge increase in personnel. And they shot it down because Obama. But now there’s apparently an emergency, even though illegal immigration has continued to fall. Right. Walls and fences are useful along some parts of the border. In other areas, other approaches (or combinations of approaches) are more effective. But the Wall as mooted has nothing to do with border security; there’s no plan for it, from what little detail we know of it it wouldn’t be effective, the money spent would be exorbitant and could be better used in other ways, and that’s not even getting into the eminent domain and environmental damage issues. In short, it’s a fucking stupid idea the Republicans want _entirely_ for political reasons. Walls and fences are also not intrinsically immoral. Cutting off all avenues by which to seek asylum, however, is. And it’s also a fucking stupid idea being pursued by the current administration. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/114 "2019-01-28T17:55:55Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Trump wants to protect us from coyotes. > > “Without borders, we have the reign of chaos, crime, cartels and believe it or not, coyotes.” > > Not the least bit surprised. The man is a moron. And you edited his quote to leave out the part about how he wants to raise tariffs on the Acme Corporation. He is indeed a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/115 "2019-01-28T17:57:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should have made “political” one of your poll choices. There are a number of Democrats that “actually did vote for [physical barriers on the southern border] before [they] voted against it”, and ISTM that their opposition is primarily motivated by a desire to deny President Trump another victory. Good news: you’re wrong. Bad news: you’re wrong because you’re still being gaslit by the party you support into believing Trump’s “wall” is the same thing as increased funding for border security, when it very clearly is not. I really hope you stop letting them do this, because really, what they’re doing to you is abusive and dangerous. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/116 "2019-01-28T19:20:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should have made “political” one of your poll choices. There are a number of Democrats that “actually did vote for [physical barriers on the southern border] before [they] voted against it”, and ISTM that their opposition is primarily motivated by a desire to deny President Trump another victory. Yes, they voted for fencing, which has as it primary purpose drug interdiction, altho yes it does slow down illegals. They didnt vote for **a wall.** Border patrol, fences in places, sophisticated electronic surveillance- all are good ideas. The Wall is not. It’s like the difference between some barbed wire and tank traps vs the maginot line. One is a good idea, and will help- the other is a useless waste of resources. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/117 "2019-01-28T21:21:27Z")
> [@dhricenak](#): > > I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I’ve seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected. There are also issues related to water. Even a steel bollard fence can have [a serious impact on flooding patterns](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/01/how-trump-us-mexico-border-wall-could-impact-environment-wildlife-water/) in areas where flooding is the primary way the desert landscape gets water > [@enipla](#): > > Trump wants to protect us from coyotes. > > “Without borders, we have the reign of chaos, crime, cartels and believe it or not, coyotes.” > > Not the least bit surprised. The man is a moron. You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/118 "2019-01-28T21:25:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers. We are aware. We are not convinced that he does. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/119 "2019-01-28T21:48:22Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > There are also issues related to water. Even a steel bollard fence can have [a serious impact on flooding patterns](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/01/how-trump-us-mexico-border-wall-could-impact-environment-wildlife-water/) in areas where flooding is the primary way the desert landscape gets water > > You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers. Trump:“And believe it or not ‘coyotes’” That quote leads me to believe he means the 4-legged howling type of coyote. His intellect supports this. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/120 "2019-01-28T21:57:44Z")
Well, if the wall is built by Wile E using the Acme Wall Kit, that should be enough to confound all the coyotes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=7)