# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/121 "2019-01-28T23:12:02Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Trump:“And believe it or not ‘coyotes’” That quote leads me to believe he means the 4-legged howling type of coyote. His intellect supports this. He was likely told that human smuggling coyotes come up from Mexico, and just thought they were the animal. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/122 "2019-01-28T23:13:45Z")
Where’s the “All of the Above” option in the poll? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/123 "2019-01-29T02:12:42Z")
I’ve brought this up in another thread and I can much more easily see the argument of it’s just not needed the anything else. I really don’t have a strong opinion either way, as immigration is just not an issue I’ve had enough experience with to have it close at heart. For those talking about fat lazy Americans, there is one nation on Earth with a much higher rate of obesity and guess what, it’s Mexico lol. Again though, for the 83 percent here that voted innefective. You are wrong. I can only say you must have zero tactical experience to see how walls work in the field and are only applying limited common sense. If you think a wall or physical barrier can’t help secure something I present to you forts, castles, prisons, military bases, your own home, Forward operating bases, and gated communities. If you think a wall can’t be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we’re only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards. The great Wall of China was also largely effective against all but large scale invasion. Of course there are easy means of defeating a wall alone but the purpose is to slow someone down and crossing attempts also create a choke point which both allow a far lower amount of personnel to control a far higher amount of people. Two to four people could easily detain 100 or 200 people if they are all trying to get over a ladder or out of a tunnel one at a time at a single point. Yet a group of ten would probably have 6-8 people evade a group of two to four. They are also extremely effective against vehicles, basically forcing anyone with a large or heavy load to cross at a controlled entry point, by sea, or by air… Sea and air are fairly effective natural barriers, even now. Does a wall address an actual existing issue… Probably not…maybe in small parts, probably disproportionately low compared to the measure. Is a wall an effective tool… absolutely. If you had such a tool, combined with easy access to immigrate properly you could be reasonably assured that anyone trying to cross it should not be crossing it and reasonably assured that most would be caught. I honestly couldn’t care less about people who overstayed a visa and probably anyone eligible for one ought to just be given the option of becoming a citizen by getting a free medical exam (helping prevent a spread of any epidemic as well as doing them a service), taking a few classes to teach them where to get tax forms, what their rights are, and some of the basics and then just become citizens just that easy. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/124 "2019-01-29T02:25:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Those are two different situations, though. > > Passing from Nevada to California does not require any sort of check of anything. You can wander across the border at any point you desire. > > My understanding is that when you travel from Belgium to Luxembourg, you still have to pass through a port of entry, even though you don’t need a visa. > > While I prefer the latter, I don’t think that the former would be the armageddon that the right tries to paint it as either. > > Why no citizen track? I wouldn’t say that they have to be, nor that everyone would qualify, but, while it would be great to have people come here just to help us out in the labor force, I also like that at least some would come with the intention of staying and building a life for themselves and their family as well. > > Would they just be working along the border, or could I get a few up here in Ohio to help me out in my business? Any limit to how long they can stay? I try to keep a low turnover, as I invest quite a bit into training my employees. I would really like to see most of my employees stay for life, as they only get better over time. I’d hate to spend 5 years getting someone to master their position, only to have them have to leave. You’ve obviously never seen the construction or housecleaning businesses In Columbus , look around a little, you could get all the legal or illegal immigrants your heart desires. If you prefer you can look around the west side, near Phillipi road and get them from Somalia or Ghana instead , both legal and illegal again, both tend to stick around at minimum 7 years, illegals usually longer since it’s actually more difficult for them to go back whenever they’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/125 "2019-01-29T02:31:10Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > Anyone know of a long wall that was supposed to keep undesirables out? Which was built at great expense and effort? And the undesirables still got through? > > Hint: > > Not a million miles from China. By and large considered highly effective at keeping out nomads. Which is why it continued to be used and built upon for hundreds of years. If it never worked I think they would have gotten the point in first few hundred years. Just innefective at periods it was vastly undermanned or against full scale invasions. Entire armies vs a few guards of course overcome a wall. The proposition of course is not trying to defend against the Mexican army. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/126 "2019-01-29T02:50:19Z")
I should have brought this argument here, instead of the “air traffic controller” thread by AE, but the biggest flaw in the wall strategy is political: [Attempting to build this thing could cost the GOP Texas](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21455507&postcount=80), at least for an election cycle or two. In another post, same thread, I ask the following: > [@The mighty air traffic controllers.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-mighty-air-traffic-controllers/828440/93): > > [Architects! Tell me your wall design plans for this section of the Rio Grande!](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Zapata,+TX+78076/@26.8943682,-99.3133729,12.75z) > > 1. Do you build an impenetrable barrier across the lake between Falcon Mesa and Siesta Shores, thereby blocking access to the RG from the cove? > 2. Do you build an impenetrable barrier along the shoreline, allowing access to the cove from the Rio Grande, but blocking land access to the cove? > 3. [This section, north of Falcon State Park](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Zapata,+TX+78076/@26.6044787,-99.1633869,14.25z). Do you build your wall on the Rio Grande, or wind it around the various coves and such? > 4. Do we lose our State Park? > 5. What are your design plans to keep [FM 2098 Spur](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Zapata,+TX+78076/@26.5576433,-99.1714707,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x866155ce4252566d:0xe0aa5e987257ce6f!8m2!3d26.9072605!4d-99.2714255) access road open, and on American territory, if you decide to build along the shoreline? > 6. Explain where the wall is going to be placed as to not affect operations of the [Falcon State Dam](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Zapata,+TX+78076/@26.5579606,-99.1684913,2315m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x866155ce4252566d:0xe0aa5e987257ce6f!8m2!3d26.9072605!4d-99.2714255). If placed on the shoreline, does the wall go on top of the dam? > 7. How does the wall impact the 1944 [Treaty for the Utilization of Waters of the Colorado and Tijuana Rivers and of the Rio Grande](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Boundary_and_Water_Commission#The_border_and_water_treaties), which governs the use of the Falcon Lake facilities for both countries? > (I mean, I can go on and on about how this idiotic idea is a fucking nightmare for the GOP, based upon the delusions of people who can’t even be bothered to look at the border via Google Maps, but I think these 7 questions are interesting enough design challenges.) > > Oh! And you have to block all this water access in a way which is politically acceptable to the largest state the GOP carries. > > (And we haven’t even begun to explore what the fuck happens in [El Paso](https://www.google.com/maps/place/El+Paso,+TX/@31.7595307,-106.4693655,6221m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x86e73f8bc5fe3b69:0xe39184e3ab9d0222!8m2!3d31.7618778!4d-106.4850217), [Laredo](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Laredo,+TX/@27.4816067,-99.5194695,9208m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8660c06ca7f93d25:0xb4407a5349567491!8m2!3d27.5035613!4d-99.5075519), the [farms of McAllen and Pharr](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Harlingen,+TX/@26.0877757,-98.1922669,11067m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x866f82107a2f2b4f:0x7666c5a12774f1d3!8m2!3d26.1906306!4d-97.6961026), [Brownsville](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Harlingen,+TX/@25.8967026,-97.5216954,13156m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x866f82107a2f2b4f:0x7666c5a12774f1d3!8m2!3d26.1906306!4d-97.6961026), and more. How is it even possible to build an impenetrable physical barrier which allows water flow throughs of the 10s of thousands of gallons an hour needed for irrigation purposes?) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/127 "2019-01-29T04:13:50Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > If you think a wall can’t be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we’re only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards. Bearing in mind that the Berlin Wall (and the “[Inner German Border](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border)” which extended along the rest of the border beyond Berlin) wasn’t just a single wall: there was the main wall, a fence about 100 yards further into East German territory (at least in the Berlin section), and a “death strip” of clear land between the two. Plus, the manned guard towers, with soldiers who had standing orders to shoot anyone trying to cross, not to mention minefields, ditches, barbed wire, tripwires, etc. In short: calling it “a wall” doesn’t come close to telling the whole story – it was effectively a fully militarized zone. I strongly suspect that it wasn’t the wall itself which prevented mass crossings of the border, but all of the additional deadly force which East Germany was willing to place there. Sources: > **[Berlin Wall | Structure and adjacent areas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall#Structure_and_adjacent_areas)** > > The Berlin Wall was more than 140 kilometres (87 mi) long. In June 1962, a second, parallel fence, also known as a "hinterland" wall (inner wall), was built some 100 m (110 yd) farther into East German territory. The houses contained between the wall and fences were razed and the inhabitants relocated, thus establishing what later became known as the death strip. The death strip was covered with raked sand or gravel, rendering footprints easy to notice, easing the detection of trespassers and Thr... > **[Inner German border](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border)** > > Border Troops of the German Democratic Republic > National People's Army > Stasi > Volkspolizei > > Bundesgrenzschutz Bundeszollverwaltung Bayerische Grenzpolizei British Army British Frontier Service United States Army ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/128 "2019-01-29T05:11:31Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > For those talking about fat lazy Americans, there is one nation on Earth with a much higher rate of obesity and guess what, it’s Mexico lol. Cite? Everything I’ve read says that they have a higher percentage of people considered overweight, but are significantly behind the US in regards to the obesity rate. > [@](#): > > Again though, for the 83 percent here that voted innefective. You are wrong. I can only say you must have zero tactical experience to see how walls work in the field and are only applying limited common sense. > > If you think a wall or physical barrier can’t help secure something I present to you forts, castles, prisons, military bases, your own home, Forward operating bases, and gated communities. Wow, that’s such a stupid statement that I’m hard pressed to assign any level of experience to it, tactical or otherwise. I can easily get into any fort, castle, prison military base or even my house, if there is no other technology involved aside from the barriers. I can scale the fort walls and prison fences (the barbed/razor wire would add a minute or two to the process, as I would either cut through it or drape a carpet over it), simply walk through the entry point of just about any military base, or break a window and crawl through into my house. > [@](#): > > If you think a wall can’t be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we’re only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards. The wall itself (which was under 100 miles in length) was a piece of cake to get over. It was all of the other aspects, such as two guard towers per mile, land mines, dogs, manned bunkers, walking guards, etc. > [@](#): > > The great Wall of China was also largely effective against all but large scale invasion. Without armed manpower, I can scale an average section of the great wall in a couple of minutes with a grappling hook and knotted rope, and I’m old and not in the best shape of my life. > [@](#): > > Of course there are easy means of defeating a wall alone but the purpose is to slow someone down and crossing attempts also create a choke point which both allow a far lower amount of personnel to control a far higher amount of people. If it only slows you down for a matter of minutes, there is no reason to avoid it and head to one of your choke points. The wall is stupid and won’t work. A 1500 mile long double wall, with extremely deep foundations (to stop tunneling), sniper equipped guard towers every half mile or so, land mines, and dog runs between the walls would probably work. It would cost a hell of a lot more than 5 (or 50 billion dollars) to do it and would just cause people to come via the water instead. Hell, it would probably work if the walls were only 3 foot high in that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/129 "2019-01-29T08:05:27Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > If you think a wall or physical barrier can’t help secure something I present to you forts, castles, prisons, military bases, your own home, Forward operating bases, and gated communities. So, first of all, note that for castles, homes, prisons, and military bases, you can’t just bring a ladder with a saddle attachment, because they also have a roof. Note that prison and forward operating base walls aren’t just walls, but are _tightly guarded_ by people who will shoot you if you try to get over those walls. (This is not a viable option for a 2000-mile wall.) As for the last one, gated communities, if getting over the wall to a gated community was something anyone actually cared about, it would probably happen _all the time_. As is, it’s just “access to where the snooty rich people live”, and serves as a deterrent to casual theft more than anything else. > [@](#): > > If you think a wall can’t be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we’re only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards. > **[Berlin Wall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall)** > > Early political career > First Secretary of the Socialist Unity Party > Government and policies Note the photo on the right. That _whole_ stretch of a few hundred yards? There are guards watching it, and they will shoot you on sight. That’s why it worked - crossing the Berlin wall wasn’t just a matter of “get over the wall”. You had to get over the wall, then sneak through about a hundred yards of tightly-watched flatlands, knowing that guards will shoot you on sight if they see you there. None of this is an option for the US-Mexico border. > [@](#): > > The great Wall of China was also largely effective against all but large scale invasion. The great wall was _designed_ against large-scale invasion. It was never built to stop individual people entering, and as far as I know, wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > Two to four people could easily detain 100 or 200 people if they are all trying to get over a ladder or out of a tunnel one at a time at a single point. Right, but given how huge the border is, we don’t _have_ 2-4 people watching every stretch of wall at any given time. If we did, the cost would be absolutely enormous - posting people 24/7 every few hundred yards for 2000 miles is an _obscene_ cost. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/130 "2019-01-29T12:47:27Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Cite? > > Everything I’ve read says that they have a higher percentage of people considered overweight, but are significantly behind the US in regards to the obesity rate. > Wow, that’s such a stupid statement that I’m hard pressed to assign any level of experience to it, tactical or otherwise. I can easily get into any fort, castle, prison military base or even my house, if there is no other technology involved aside from the barriers. I can scale the fort walls and prison fences (the barbed/razor wire would add a minute or two to the process, as I would either cut through it or drape a carpet over it), simply walk through the entry point of just about any military base, or break a window and crawl through into my house. > The wall itself (which was under 100 miles in length) was a piece of cake to get over. It was all of the other aspects, such as two guard towers per mile, land mines, dogs, manned bunkers, walking guards, etc. > > Without armed manpower, I can scale an average section of the great wall in a couple of minutes with a grappling hook and knotted rope, and I’m old and not in the best shape of my life. > If it only slows you down for a matter of minutes, there is no reason to avoid it and head to one of your choke points. > > The wall is stupid and won’t work. A 1500 mile long double wall, with extremely deep foundations (to stop tunneling), sniper equipped guard towers every half mile or so, land mines, and dog runs between the walls would probably work. It would cost a hell of a lot more than 5 (or 50 billion dollars) to do it and would just cause people to come via the water instead. Hell, it would probably work if the walls were only 3 foot high in that scenario. A ladder is a choke point. Current border “wall” sections are very similar to the first three generations of the Berlin Wall. High fence, constantina wire , no man’s land , another fence. And big no kidding. Let me say it one more time. Any physical barrier can be easily surmounted if there is nothing to back it up…duh. I said that Cite for fattest nation. Too easy to search that. Whether you’re considering obesity or just over weight it’s gone back and forth between the US and Mexico since 2010. But here’s a few hundred cites Though I guess it has gone back and forth between [https://www.google.com/search?q=mexico+fattest+nation&oq=mexico+fattest+nation&aqs=chrome..69i57.7328j1j4&client=ms-android-americamovil-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=mexico+fattest+nation&oq=mexico+fattest+nation&aqs=chrome..69i57.7328j1j4&client=ms-android-americamovil-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/131 "2019-01-29T12:59:05Z")
I’ll > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So, first of all, note that for castles, homes, prisons, and military bases, you can’t just bring a ladder with a saddle attachment, because they also have a roof. Note that prison and forward operating base walls aren’t just walls, but are _tightly guarded_ by people who will shoot you if you try to get over those walls. (This is not a viable option for a 2000-mile wall.) As for the last one, gated communities, if getting over the wall to a gated community was something anyone actually cared about, it would probably happen _all the time_. As is, it’s just “access to where the snooty rich people live”, and serves as a deterrent to casual theft more than anything else. > > [Berlin Wall - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall) > > Note the photo on the right. That _whole_ stretch of a few hundred yards? There are guards watching it, and they will shoot you on sight. That’s why it worked - crossing the Berlin wall wasn’t just a matter of “get over the wall”. You had to get over the wall, then sneak through about a hundred yards of tightly-watched flatlands, knowing that guards will shoot you on sight if they see you there. None of this is an option for the US-Mexico border. > > The great wall was _designed_ against large-scale invasion. It was never built to stop individual people entering, and as far as I know, wouldn’t. > > Right, but given how huge the border is, we don’t _have_ 2-4 people watching every stretch of wall at any given time. If we did, the cost would be absolutely enormous - posting people 24/7 every few hundred yards for 2000 miles is an _obscene_ cost. I don’t think you can break down the actual intent of the great Wall since it was built by several dynasties but it was effective against small groups. Regardless of scale, a wall simply reduces the amount of personnel required to secure an area by an order of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/132 "2019-01-29T13:00:30Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > A ladder is a choke point. > > Current border “wall” sections are very similar to the first three generations of the Berlin Wall. I love that the modern Republican party is looking to Soviet Bloc states for guidance on how to treat borders. And by “love,” I mean “loathe.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/133 "2019-01-29T14:03:52Z")
“A ladder is a choke point”, lol. A portable one which can appear anywhere, at any time, but yeah, technically it’s a choke point. I mean… did you write this thinking that Mexicans are going to put ladders against the wall and just _leave them there for future migrants?_ So that then, all we have to do is find the ladders, and then wait for the Mexicans? This is part of the fantasy world conservatives live in today. Of the state’s $1.65 trillion in GDP, fully 1/10th is [trade with Mexico.](https://www.dallasnews.com/business/economic-snapshot/2017/04/21/texas-muchriding-trade-mexico) You can talk design all you want, but it’s fantasy. Texas doesn’t want your wall, we have better things to do than let a bunch of ignorant border-less racists in small-assed States tell us what to do with our $170 billion relationship with Mexico, and we sure as hell aren’t going to let South Carolina, for example, wall us off from our biggest neighbor. But go ahead! Go ahead and demand that the GOP puts Texas’s 38+ electoral votes up for grabs so they can be assured of 2 EV’s from WY, SD, ND, etc. Go ahead and force the GOP be the driving force behind the single most unpopular eminent domain case in the States history. We Texas Dems are just _begging_ for such a gift. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/134 "2019-01-29T16:17:26Z")
“Constantina wire?” ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/135 "2019-01-29T17:00:35Z")
> [@andros](#): > > “Constantina wire?” Most coiled wire you’ll see is not actually razor wire. It’s constantina. Basically really effective Barb’s that snag everything rather than just cut people up. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/136 "2019-01-29T17:03:26Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > “A ladder is a choke point”, lol. A portable one which can appear anywhere, at any time, but yeah, technically it’s a choke point. > > I mean… did you write this thinking that Mexicans are going to put ladders against the wall and just _leave them there for future migrants?_ So that then, all we have to do is find the ladders, and then wait for the Mexicans? > > This is part of the fantasy world conservatives live in today. > > Of the state’s $1.65 trillion in GDP, fully 1/10th is [trade with Mexico.](https://www.dallasnews.com/business/economic-snapshot/2017/04/21/texas-muchriding-trade-mexico) > > You can talk design all you want, but it’s fantasy. Texas doesn’t want your wall, we have better things to do than let a bunch of ignorant border-less racists in small-assed States tell us what to do with our $170 billion relationship with Mexico, and we sure as hell aren’t going to let South Carolina, for example, wall us off from our biggest neighbor. > > But go ahead! Go ahead and demand that the GOP puts Texas’s 38+ electoral votes up for grabs so they can be assured of 2 EV’s from WY, SD, ND, etc. Go ahead and force the GOP be the driving force behind the single most unpopular eminent domain case in the States history. We Texas Dems are just _begging_ for such a gift. I never said I wanted it. Just that effectiveness is not a good argument. I’ll be sure and let every military leader i know though in on the knowledge that apparently walls don’t work, besides we have thousands of soldiers with rifles and machine guns so we don’t need that T barrier on FOBs because anyone can climb over with a ladder. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/137 "2019-01-29T17:19:25Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Most coiled wire you’ll see is not actually razor wire. It’s constantina. Basically really effective Barb’s that snag everything rather than just cut people up. The term is [**concertina** wire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concertina_wire), not constantina. I imagine that andros knows what concertina wire is, and was pointing out the wrong word usage. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/138 "2019-01-29T17:22:08Z")
Ladder is a choke point because you can’t have 100 people cross it at once simultaneously scattering. Whether the "personnel " are people , dogs, drones. Doesn’t matter, they can detect and alert about a single choke point and effectively control or eliminate that breech with far more ease and faaaar less personnel much more easily than an open field. Doesn’t matter if the barrier is a fence , a wall, a double stack of constantina or what. They are used ubiquitously because they are an effective tool. Even industrial buildings use them for security, it makes it a lot easier for people to be spotted, and caught. Even though anyone can get through with some wire snips, a ladder, a whatever…you name it. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/139 "2019-01-29T17:23:15Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > The term is [**concertina** wire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concertina_wire), not constantina. I imagine that andros knows what concertina wire is, and was pointing out the wrong word usage. Ah ok ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/140 "2019-01-29T17:36:24Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > I never said I wanted it. Just that effectiveness is not a good argument. > > I’ll be sure and let every military leader i know though in on the knowledge that apparently walls don’t work, besides we have thousands of soldiers with rifles and machine guns so we don’t need that T barrier on FOBs because anyone can climb over with a ladder. Go ahead and do that, see if I care. That’s not my main point, anyway, which is, restated: This wall will not work _in Texas_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=8)