# Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420 "2019-01-25T20:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/141 "2019-01-29T17:40:39Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Yeah, but over a thousand years later, we still talk about it, and we still call it “Great.” That’s catnip for the Orange Moron. Yup, “great,” as in “great boondoggle.” But the Orange Cockatoo can’t see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/142 "2019-01-29T17:41:29Z")
Again, the reason that East Germany’s wall was effective was _not_ the wall itself – it was the fact that East German created a militarized zone, a hundred yards wide or wider, along the entire border with West Germany. They tore out whatever was sitting in that zone originally (including homes and farms). Which, of course, as a totalitarian regime, they could do. Littleman, you may argue that that’s just a semantic difference – that the East German border system still is, fundamentally, a wall. Fair enough. But…that sort of border security has, as far as I can tell, _never_ been what Trump has described when he talks about “his wall.” He (and, I would wager, most of his supporters) envision it as a single, impenetrable, unscaleable wall (steel slat fence, whatever). So, if you want this “wall system” to be as effective as East Germany’s was, you’d have to go full-in. The U.S. would have to take possession of land along the border, hundreds of yards into U.S. territory, for hundreds of miles. Much of that land is owned by private individuals right now, or public parkland – and, as JohnT keeps pointing out, the entire border in Texas is a river. And, then, once you take control of that land, and build this extensive militarized zone, you’d have to staff it and maintain it, constantly. If you were willing to do all of this, sure, it’d be an effective wall. It’d also be _massively_ expensive and disruptive. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/143 "2019-01-29T17:42:00Z")
> [@dhricenak](#): > > I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I’ve seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected. Well, the vote only allows one choice. IMHO, three choices apply. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/144 "2019-01-29T17:47:21Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > A ladder is a choke point. Not a ladder that I carry with me. > [@](#): > > Current border “wall” sections are very similar to the first three generations of the Berlin Wall. > > High fence, constantina wire , no man’s land , another fence. So part of the plan is to have guard towers every half mile, land mines between the fences, etc.? > [@](#): > > And big no kidding. > Let me say it one more time. > Any physical barrier can be easily surmounted if there is nothing to back it up…duh. I said that Excellent, now how many guard towers should we have along the entire length, how many personnel in each tower? Throw in a few more numbers for the count of dogs and land mines that we might want, to secure these ladder “choke points” that you find so limiting. > [@](#): > > Cite for fattest nation. Too easy to search that. Whether you’re considering obesity or just over weight it’s gone back and forth between the US and Mexico since 2010. > > But here’s a few hundred cites > > Though I guess it has gone back and forth between > > [mexico fattest nation - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=mexico+fattest+nation&oq=mexico+fattest+nation&aqs=chrome..69i57.7328j1j4&client=ms-android-americamovil-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) You’re new here, but a google landing page doesn’t qualify as a cite on this board, but many of the links there state the we are in fact more obese. To be fair, this has shit to do with the wall, and was tossed out as an aside to point out that most of those who would climb such walls end up doing jobs Americans don’t want to do, whether fat and lazy and slim and active. > [@The Washington Post](#): > > That year, 489,000 people were unemployed statewide. The North Carolina Growers Association listed 6,500 available jobs. Just 268 of those 489,000 North Carolinians applied, and 245 were hired. On the first day of work, 163 showed up, and a grand total of seven finished the season. Of the mostly Mexican workers who took the rest of the jobs, 90 percent made it through to the end. No mention of fat or lazy, but it certainly appears we’re not willing. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/145 "2019-01-29T17:48:55Z")
Littleman, the Berlin wall “worked” because there was a shoot to kill order. Does Trump think he can do that on the Rio Grande? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/146 "2019-01-29T17:53:28Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > Littleman, the Berlin wall “worked” because there was a shoot to kill order. Does Trump think he can do that on the Rio Grande? Not to mention the land mines. Will we be doing those, too? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/147 "2019-01-29T20:30:48Z")
[Wallyball](https://youtu.be/YRj1dxrEQBM) ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/148 "2019-01-29T20:37:11Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > Littleman, the Berlin wall “worked” because there was a shoot to kill order. Does Trump think he can do that on the Rio Grande? The why did they bother with a wall at all? Why not just guards. Oh because it would have taken 100 times more guards to still make it 99 percent effective. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/149 "2019-01-29T20:41:57Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Not a ladder that I carry with me.So part of the plan is to have guard towers every half mile, land mines between the fences, etc.? > > Excellent, now how many guard towers should we have along the entire length, how many personnel in each tower? Throw in a few more numbers for the count of dogs and land mines that we might want, to secure these ladder “choke points” that you find so limiting. > You’re new here, but a google landing page doesn’t qualify as a cite on this board, but many of the links there state the we are in fact more obese. To be fair, this has shit to do with the wall, and was tossed out as an aside to point out that most of those who would climb such walls end up doing jobs Americans don’t want to do, whether fat and lazy and slim and active. > > No mention of fat or lazy, but it certainly appears we’re not willing. Carry a ladder all you want, it’s still a choke point. Carrying it somewhere doesn’t make able to have people climb it 20 or 30 or more across. You still gotta go over it one at a time. Ok cites on Mexico’s fatness. [https://www.actigraphcorp.com/news-article/mexico-surpasses-u-s-as-worlds-fattest-nation/](https://www.actigraphcorp.com/news-article/mexico-surpasses-u-s-as-worlds-fattest-nation/) > **[Sugar tax: Are Mexicans the fattest people in the world?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43668927.amp)** > > A look at the countries with the highest levels of obesity. > **[Hooked on sugar... How the world's fattest nation is battling obesity](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hooked-sugar-mexico-worlds-fattest-10012960)** > > With five million clinically obese people living in Mexico City alone, the government introduced the levy to combat the problem - and now the UK is looking to follow their example Better? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/150 "2019-01-29T20:46:07Z")
Want to secure well, essentially anything long term? A wall is basically requisite. Why because it’s an effective tool. Doesn’t need to be 99 percent effective to be effective. Whatever you back it up with now determines how effective it is. Without one, you want to secure a line, you basically need a 24 hour formation of people who can hold hands stacked several deep. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/151 "2019-01-29T20:48:01Z")
Drop the hijack regarding relative weight/obesity of differing nations. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/152 "2019-01-29T20:50:14Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Want to secure well, essentially anything long term? > > A wall is basically requisite. Why because it’s an effective tool. > > Doesn’t need to be 99 percent effective to be effective. > > Whatever you back it up with now determines how effective it is. > > Without one, you want to secure a line, you basically need a 24 hour formation of people who can hold hands stacked several deep. Is it 1415? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/153 "2019-01-29T21:04:59Z")
Are we expecting just a lone wall with zero monitoring, zero enforcement, zero patrols. Because we all know that would be probably less than 1 percent effective. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/154 "2019-01-29T21:08:16Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Are we expecting just a lone wall with zero monitoring, zero enforcement, zero patrols. > > Because we all know that would be probably less than 1 percent effective. So how many guard towers per mile are you envisioning? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/155 "2019-01-29T21:12:59Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Are we expecting just a lone wall with zero monitoring, zero enforcement, zero patrols. > > Because we all know that would be probably less than 1 percent effective. I don’t know any such thing. Got math which leads to that 1% effectiveness conclusion, or is it pulled out of the ether? A wall which is 1% effective should never be built. Let’s shelve this stupid idea. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/156 "2019-01-29T21:40:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So how many guard towers per mile are you envisioning? Idk. If I wanted to secure the border which is an awfully big if ,Hypothetically; Really depends on surrounding terrain but assuming good usual visibility and wanting a reasonable success rate and deterrent factor, using apprehension and at most less than lethal force as a goal. I’d say posting up every 3-5 miles would be highly effective with a wall and cameras. You could probably spread that to at least 10-12 maybe more with random patrols. Assuming you also used drone monitoring with IR equipment to track approaches you might stretch that to 20 miles and still be highly effective. Beyond that I’d say your rates of effectiveness would start dropping off pretty quick at 30-40 miles I would guess you’re down in the maybe 50 percent range. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/157 "2019-01-29T21:43:12Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers. Oh, I think I’d take that bet. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/158 "2019-01-29T21:43:27Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I don’t know any such thing. Got math which leads to that 1% effectiveness conclusion, or is it pulled out of the ether? > > A wall which is 1% effective should never be built. Let’s shelve this stupid idea. Thanks! Just can’t imagine many people able to get to it with a ladder or snips or sledgehammer or whatever would suddenly be stymied by an unmonitored wall or fence. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/159 "2019-01-29T22:21:12Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Just can’t imagine many people able to get to it with a ladder or snips or sledgehammer or whatever would suddenly be stymied by an unmonitored wall or fence. If you’re doing the monitoring anyway, the wall seems like a waste of money ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420/160 "2019-01-29T22:22:55Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Idk. > > If I wanted to secure the border which is an awfully big if ,Hypothetically; > Really depends on surrounding terrain but assuming good usual visibility and wanting a reasonable success rate and deterrent factor, using apprehension and at most less than lethal force as a goal. I’d say posting up every 3-5 miles would be highly effective with a wall and cameras. Okay, so taht is 400 to 700 guard towers along the length of the wall. I assume manned 24/7, with a minimum of 2 guards each. given 8 hours, that is 42 shifts per week, so at least 10 assigned to each post, to give coverage for PTO or illness. So, an additional 4000 to 7000 guards need to be employed. > [@](#): > > You could probably spread that to at least 10-12 maybe more with random patrols. Okay, down to about 200 to 240 guard towers, with only 2000 to 2400 positions open, plus enough for random patrols to cover those 2000 miles. > [@](#): > > Assuming you also used drone monitoring with IR equipment to track approaches you might stretch that to 20 miles and still be highly effective. 10 miles (half of 20) means that you are at least 10 minutes away (at 60MPH, a doubtful proposition along the border). How many people do you think can climb a ladder in 10 minutes? > [@](#): > > Beyond that I’d say your rates of effectiveness would start dropping off pretty quick at 30-40 miles I would guess you’re down in the maybe 50 percent range. Well, yeah, at 30-40 minutes till interception, I’d say 50% would be a pretty generous rate. While we are at it, what are ROE? Are they shooting on sight? Are they warning first? Can they shoot runners? If they are running away into Mexico? if they are running away into the US? How close to the wall can people get before they are in the “kill zone”? Will we end up with a double wall, so that there is a kill zone in between the walls? Maybe put in some mines? You can accomplish comprehensive border security of this without having to build a wall that will cuase massive ecological damage, will ruin commerce for Texas and most of the southern US, and require the largest government confiscation of property in the history of the US. If there are places where a physical barrier does not exist that could use one, or a physical barrier that could use an upgrade, then this is a reasonable discussion to have. The idea of just building a wall along the border is a non-starter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opposition-to-the-wall-moral-financial-practical-or-otherwise/828420.md?page=9)