# Opt out organ donation and relatives' wishes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463 "2013-07-02T17:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/181 "2013-07-04T20:10:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Considering that I have already cited upthread a case in this country _in the last decade_ in which a patient was deliberately killed for the purpose of harvesting their organs? I’d say not. Then it’s too late! We’re already sliding down your slippery slope, so rejecting an opt-out system of organ donation cannot stop us. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/182 "2013-07-04T20:13:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Link works just fine-if you close the membership box, the article will still be there. There’s not a membership “box”, just a webpage with no options other than “join now”. Please provide a link that does require me to join anything. I’m done trying to make yours work. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/183 "2013-07-04T20:17:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So, if the “net gain to society is still overwhelmingly positive” you wouldn’t be opposed to being obliged to give up a kidney while you’re still alive? If the “net gain to society is still overwhelmingly positive” slavery would be OK? Not even going to bother. If you don’t understand what’s wrong with this analogy when you’re comparing harvesting the bodies of those already deceased by unrelated causes with _mandatory organ donations and slavery_, then you’re even worse than Smapti. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/184 "2013-07-04T20:19:49Z")
Oh, please - you’re saying that anything that has a net benefit for society as a whole is justifiable, and you can’t see the problems with that? You have your head in the sand. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/185 "2013-07-04T20:20:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Dude… Go away. You’re nuts. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If you don’t understand what’s wrong with this analogy when you’re comparing harvesting the bodies of those already deceased by unrelated causes with _mandatory organ donations and slavery_, then you’re even worse than Smapti. You’re insulting other posters here. Stop it now. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/186 "2013-07-04T20:21:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oh, please - you’re saying that anything that has a net benefit for society as a whole is justifiable, No, I’m not. I never asserted anything of the sort. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/187 "2013-07-04T20:22:54Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You provided an example of a terminally ill patient who was being denied the care provided by a respirator on the grounds that all it was doing was prolonging the inevitable. The man was going to die either way. The difference was a handful of hours of his life, or useful organs for donation. Your example could not have been worse, and your citation is an emotional blog post. Hell, it goes out of its way to state: > > No, we’re not, any more than pulling the plug on terminally comatose patients is a step down the slippery slope to killing people who get a case of the sniffles. By the evidence we can gather, Navarro was, at the time, “a living person” almost in the same way Terry Schiavo was. I would personally prefer being “in a coma with no chance of recovery” to being _dead_, and I deny any assertion that the state has the right to make that decision on my behalf on the basis of my having neglected to check a box. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/188 "2013-07-04T20:23:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s not a membership “box”, just a webpage with no options other than “join now”. > > Please provide a link that does require me to join anything. I’m done trying to make yours work. When I closed the membership page the article was underneath. I didn’t sign up for anything, and I can read the article just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/189 "2013-07-04T20:26:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would personally prefer being “in a coma with no chance of recovery” to being _dead_, and I deny any assertion that the state has the right to make that decision on my behalf on the basis of my having neglected to check a box. Should your family lose everything they own to fulfill your wishes? When they have run out of money, who gets to pay your bills? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/190 "2013-07-04T20:26:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Not even going to bother. If you don’t understand what’s wrong with this analogy when you’re comparing harvesting the bodies of those already deceased by unrelated causes with _mandatory organ donations and slavery_, then you’re even worse than Smapti. We already have several people in this very thread stating that people should either be forced to consent to organ “donation”, or be left to die. When death is the penalty for not engaging in forced charity, your body is no longer your own; it is the chattel of the state to be disposed of as it deems fit. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/191 "2013-07-04T20:27:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Should your family lose everything they own to fulfill your wishes? I’m comfortable with that. I can’t spend the money after I’m dead. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/192 "2013-07-04T20:29:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would personally prefer being “in a coma with no chance of recovery” to being _dead_, and I deny any assertion that the state has the right to make that decision on my behalf on the basis of my having neglected to check a box. In one sentence, you manage to get how many things wrong? 1. “In a coma with no chance of recovery” is neat; with brain damage, you’re pretty much functionally dead. If there’s no chance of recovery, there’s little effective difference. You certainly wouldn’t _notice_ a difference. 2. It was hospital policy to take Navarro off the respirator, this was made before the organ donors came into play to begin with. 3. There was no box checked, it had _nothing to do with that_. 4. The state made no such decision - the hospital did. I count four. Anyone else spot more? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/193 "2013-07-04T20:30:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would personally prefer being “in a coma with no chance of recovery” to being _dead_ From the standpoint of an individual, there’s no functional difference. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/194 "2013-07-04T20:31:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m comfortable with that. I can’t spend the money after I’m dead. After you’re dead it’s not your money to spend. It would take very little time to run through whatever moneys you’ve managed to hoard during your lifetime-after you’ve forced your family to spend their inheritance on your upkeep, would you have them use all _their_ money too? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/195 "2013-07-04T20:31:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We already have several people in this very thread stating that people should either be forced to consent to organ “donation”, or be left to die. They’re saying they should not be privy to a medical procedure that is entirely reliant on the participation of willing individuals without being such a willing individual. > [@](#): > > When death is the penalty for not engaging in forced charity, your body is no longer your own; it is the chattel of the state to be disposed of as it deems fit. So I’m confused. Is denying people organs they need “condemning them to death” or not? Because if so, _you_ are condemning people to death by refusing to offer your organs. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/196 "2013-07-04T20:33:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When I closed the membership page the article was underneath. I didn’t sign up for anything, and I can read the article just fine. OK, when I click on the link I don’t see a membership “box” and there is nothing underneath it. The “JOIN NOW!” is the entirety of the webpage and there is no way to close just the exhortation to join. One more time: There is no “box” to close, just a page, on it’s own. No little “x” to click to close anything. Nothing separate to close. No way to access this article. I did try to get to a homepage and look for something relevant from there, but no go. So, please, now that it’s a page later, tell what the point of that link was and/or if the same information is available elsewhere from something that doesn’t require me to join up. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/197 "2013-07-04T20:37:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Should your family lose everything they own to fulfill your wishes? When they have run out of money, who gets to pay your bills? Well, in this country if a disabled person runs out of money they’re warehoused in a “nursing home” or “long term facility” or whatever current term is in vogue until they die of something like infected bed sores due to insufficient staffing that leads to no one being available to turn/shift you on a decent schedule because, you know, if you don’t have money you don’t get decent health care. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/198 "2013-07-04T20:38:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > After you’re dead it’s not your money to spend. All the more reason to spend it while I’m still alive, then. > [@](#): > > It would take very little time to run through whatever moneys you’ve managed to hoard during your lifetime-after you’ve forced your family to spend their inheritance on your upkeep, would you have them use all _their_ money too? Yes. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So I’m confused. Is denying people organs they need “condemning them to death” or not? Because if so, _you_ are condemning people to death by refusing to offer your organs. To be able to give someone an available and genetically compatible organ in order to save their life, but to refuse to do so because of political concerns, is to condemn them to death. To cause the organ to not be available in the first place is not. > [@](#): > > They’re saying they should not be privy to a medical procedure that is entirely reliant on the participation of willing individuals without being such a willing individual. Which is entirely incompatible with the “first, do no harm” credo that several people upthread have claimed to espouse. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/199 "2013-07-04T20:50:58Z")
From an article from The Southern Medical Journal titled “When Is An Organ Donor Not An Organ Donor” > [@](#): > > In the United States, the Uniform Anatomic Gift Act (UAGA) provides the legal framework for the process of organ donation. This statute grants any mentally competent individual at least 18 years of age the right to designate whether or not he wishes to donate his organs for transplantation after death. When the decedent has expressed such a desire, this wish is to be honored over any familial objections. By 1973, all 50 states had adopted, with only slight variations, some form of the UAGA. A properly signed declaration (such as the back of a driver’s license or an organ donor card) is a legal document under the UAGA and is effective to authorize donation in every state. Moreover, the relevant laws specify that consent of the donor’s relatives is not needed in such circumstances-the relatives do not have legal authority to undo the donor’s wishes. However > [@](#): > > A number of factors may influence physicians and/or organ procurement agencies to allow a family’s wishes to override a patient’s legal right to be a organ donor. The dissonance produced by family refusal and the potential generation of conflict between family and physician (and possibly lawsuits) could obviously affect decision-making by the physician. In some instances, significant controversy and adverse publicity could result if the decedent’s family were offended and sought legal recourse, or complained to the local news media. Threats of events of this nature could make those in the medical profession hesitant to defy a family’s opinion despite the patient’s stated wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/200 "2013-07-04T20:56:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To be able to give someone an available and genetically compatible organ in order to save their life, but to refuse to do so because of political concerns, is to condemn them to death. You are aware that the reason this is an issue to begin with is that the demand for organs far outweighs the supply, correct? It’s not “be able but refuse for political reasons”, it’s more “be able to but give to someone else instead”. > [@](#): > > Which is entirely incompatible with the “first, do no harm” credo that several people upthread have claimed to espouse. This is completely wrong, as _no harm is being done_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463.md?page=11)