# Opt out organ donation and relatives' wishes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463 "2013-07-02T17:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/61 "2013-07-03T18:29:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Perhaps once you’ve already decided that there’s absolutely no good reason that any sane person would ever not want to be an organ donor, it becomes hard to imagine any reason for a shortage other than “people are too lazy to check a box”. Okay, give me a good reason. Should be no problem. Haven’t heard a good one yet. Either way though, as pointed out, massive portions of the population support organ donorship for themselves and others - far more than are actually on the list. This indicates that laziness is, in fact, a major factor. And you still haven’t pointed out why the onus to not be lazy should be on those who would be a detriment to society for their own personal beliefs, rather than those who would be a benefit to society. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/62 "2013-07-03T18:32:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that most people would _not_ want their organs donated, and that this is demonstrated by the fact that most people have not declared that they want their organs to be donated. As [http://donatelife.net/understanding-donation/statistics/](http://donatelife.net/understanding-donation/statistics/) points out, citing the report by the UNOS: > [@](#): > > 90% of Americans say they support donation, but only 30% know the essential steps to take to be a donor. …So much for that bright idea. As we’ve said, _it’s about laziness_. > [@](#): > > I choose not to be an organ donor because I am concerned that, in an emergency situation, medical officials might not prioritize saving my life if I had consented in advance to having my organs harvested. Call me paranoid if you like. Okay, you’re paranoid. What’s more, your paranoia is hurting other people. This is not only insane _and_ something more out of Monty Python than anything else (and, it should go without saying, _not_ a good reason), but goes against everything medicine in the modern world stands for. Ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/63 "2013-07-03T18:47:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I can envision a scenario in which a doctor might decide that he’s ethically obligated to save six lives by not saving my own. Them’s gonna have to be some pretty fucking strong feelings of ethical obligation in order for them to be able to overcome the physician’s feelings of not wanting to be sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars, to lose their license to practice medicine forever, and to quite possibly be imprisoned for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/64 "2013-07-03T18:55:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …So much for that bright idea. As we’ve said, _it’s about laziness_. Cite for people stating that they’re too lazy to check a box? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/65 "2013-07-03T18:59:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Second of all, _tough titties_. What the hell do _you_ care about your corpse when you’re dead? You don’t care about anything! You don’t _get_ to care about anything, you’re _dead_ By this logic, why ought I care about what happens to _anyone else’s body_ after I die? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/66 "2013-07-03T19:00:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There’s already advertising. Come on now: do you really think nobody had thought to try something that obvious? I don’t recall seeing any, so it’s probably not very good advertising. My car insurance is with State Farm, but Flo and that gecko make their voices heard. Hey, what about some sort of cash incentive? Pay people $100 up front to consent to donation irrevocably? It could be a checkbox on tax forms, all handled automagically. (Thanks for the bonus points- I almost went with New Coke. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/67 "2013-07-03T19:05:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > By this logic, why ought I care about what happens to _anyone else’s body_ after I die? Persuading you to give weight to moral concerns benefiting the larger society certainly does seem like a losing battle. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/68 "2013-07-03T19:05:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite for people stating that they’re too lazy to check a box? :rolleyes: Look, the fact of the matter is that while 90% state that they want to donate their organs, only 30% know how, and even less proceed to do so. So I guess it’s not just laziness, it’s also stupidity. For which the same argument applies. Once again, I challenge you to give me a reason why we should place the onus of figuring out the options and making a statement on the issue to those who would save lives rather than those who wouldn’t. _And_ to give me one good reason why anyone would not donate their organs. > [@Smapti](#): > > By this logic, why ought I care about what happens to _anyone else’s body_ after I die? Well, you care now. After you die, you won’t care, because… … …_you’ll be dead._ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/69 "2013-07-03T19:09:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite for people stating that they’re too lazy to check a box? This is getting stupid. I’ve already posted one cite that showed the rate of support for organ donation is higher than the rate of people signing up, and **Budget Player Cadet** posted another. And I posted two cites that show opt-out can increase donation rates. > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > I don’t recall seeing any, so it’s probably not very good advertising. Would you accept the argument “I have seen the ads, therefore they’re great?” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/70 "2013-07-03T19:13:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is getting stupid. I’ve already posted one cite that showed the rate of support for organ donation is higher than the rate of people signing up, and **Budget Player Cadet** posted another. And I posted two cites that show opt-out can increase donation rates. From which it does not follow that the reason for failing to opt in is laziness. If that is your argument, would you concede then that opt-out is basically an attempt to take advantage of and exploit people who are too lazy to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/71 "2013-07-03T19:15:38Z")
Well, gee, why would _anyone_ care about the living? I only have my best interests at heart, even after I’m dead! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/72 "2013-07-03T19:17:31Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > Well, gee, why would _anyone_ care about the living? I only have my best interests at heart, even after I’m dead! As has been stated above, I shouldn’t care about what happens to my body after I die, because I’ll be dead and it won’t affect me. Therefore, one can only conclude that I shouldn’t care about what happens to anyone else after I die either, because I’ll be dead and it won’t affect me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/73 "2013-07-03T19:24:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > From which it does not follow that the reason for failing to opt in is laziness. It pretty much does, yes. I guess the only evidence you will accept is people stating outright that they’re lazy, in which case you’re deliberately setting an unreasonable threshold for evidence. > [@](#): > > If that is your argument, would you concede then that opt-out is basically an attempt to take advantage of and exploit people who are too lazy to do so? It takes advantage of apathy, not people. But I made this general point long before you asked me to concede it. > [@Marley23](#): > > It saves lives whether you call it a gift or not. The basic problem is that a significant number of patients die because many people are so lazy - or so reluctant to think about this somewhat icky subject - that they can’t be bothered to check a box or fill out a form. I used to agree with your position for reasons of ownership of your own body, but laziness or apathy don’t deserve this kind of respect. Anyone who is determined not to be an organ donor could easily opt out. If the driving force here is inertia, you may as well use that inertia for good since it will save lives. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/74 "2013-07-03T19:27:14Z")
Heh, I just checked the back of my medicare card and I see I forgot to put the “I’m an organ donor” sticker on. Make it opt-out. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/75 "2013-07-03T19:29:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > From which it does not follow that the reason for failing to opt in is laziness. It follows directly from the fact that 90% want to but only 30% know how that 60% are either lazy or stupid or both. Or is there something we’re leaving out here? Maybe some secret reason you haven’t yet told us? (Still waiting, by the way - you seemed to offer a reason and have yet to provide one.) > [@](#): > > If that is your argument, would you concede then that opt-out is basically an attempt to take advantage of and exploit people who are too lazy to do so? “Exploit”? How is it exploitation if the first time it has any effect on them is when they are already dead? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/76 "2013-07-03T19:32:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It follows directly from the fact that 90% want to but only 30% know how that 60% are either lazy or stupid or both. Or 60% feel awkward telling a total stranger they don’t want to be organ donors. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/77 "2013-07-03T19:34:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Therefore, one can only conclude that I shouldn’t care about what happens to anyone else after I die either, because I’ll be dead and it won’t affect me. You won’t care about your corpse when you’re dead, not just because you’ll probably be unable to do so, but because even if there were an afterlife (assuming it’s doesn’t involve Anubis or anything) you won’t actually be using your body anyway. The person for whom your body was of most use no longer needs it. Other people will be using their bodies after you’re dead. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/78 "2013-07-03T19:39:55Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > You won’t care about your corpse when you’re dead, not just because you’ll probably be unable to do so, but because even if there were an afterlife (assuming it’s doesn’t involve Anubis or anything) you won’t actually be using your body anyway. The person for whom your body was of most use no longer needs it. And I, conversely, no longer need anyone else after I die, so why is what happens to them from that point any concern of mine? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/79 "2013-07-03T19:42:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I, conversely, no longer need anyone else after I die, so why is what happens to them from that point any concern of mine? If you can’t see a good reason to care more for a living person you’ll get nothing from than a dead chunk of meat, I can’t explain it to you. What I suspect is more likely is that you already see a good reason, but are wilfully acting ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/80 "2013-07-03T19:49:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Or 60% feel awkward telling a total stranger they don’t want to be organ donors. And the curtain goes up on the naked speculation portion of our thread. There’s a saying that statements without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and that applies here. Meanwhile the opt out side can offer a couple of significant (supported) facts: most people say they support organ donation, but fewer are registered as organ donors; and opt-out programs increase donations. The bottom line here is that people tend to go with whatever the default is. If the default is that your organs go with you when you die, people will do that. If the default is that they’re donated, they’ll do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463.md?page=5)